spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 8:41:06 GMT
I'm not sure if you lot saw this on your local news, but Nigel Farage, leader of UKIP, was heckled in Edinburgh yesterday. In light of the Scottish Independence thread, I think this warrants it's own separate thread despite being linked to the Scottish Independence debate. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183I agree with Farage's comments. I don't believe the protesters will have been your average joe from Edinburgh. Instead I think they will have come down from more remote areas where nationalism is stronger. I don't believe there is a lot of Scottish nationalism in neither Glasgow or Edinburgh, hence the SNP's support in these areas, particularly Glasgow which is and always has been a Labour stronghold, is low.
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Billkmc
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Post by Billkmc on May 17, 2013 9:51:22 GMT
Ukip really can't comment on racism and fascists, this is the party were members were flung out for supporting gay marriage and do you remember the member suspended for giving a nazi salute and having a knife in his teeth. Senior member Julia gasper also claimed gay people prefer sex with animals and you could write a really big book on the reason with gay people are more likely to molest kids. Not all ukip members are nutters but maybe they should get their own house in order before accusing others of being fascists.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 10:53:34 GMT
I'm not sure if you lot saw this on your local news, but Nigel Farage, leader of UKIP, was heckled in Edinburgh yesterday. In light of the Scottish Independence thread, I think this warrants it's own separate thread despite being linked to the Scottish Independence debate. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183I agree with Farage's comments. I don't believe the protesters will have been your average joe from Edinburgh. Instead I think they will have come down from more remote areas where nationalism is stronger. I don't believe there is a lot of Scottish nationalism in neither Glasgow or Edinburgh, hence the SNP's support in these areas, particularly Glasgow which is and always has been a Labour stronghold, is low. So a few assholes are representative of the SNP? Get a grip man. Some of the UKIP have been accused on National TV of being racist so does that make them all racist? You sit back in your 'wee hame' south of the border and suddenly you are an expert on Scottish Politics? You think that the SNP has only support from the remote areas? How naive are you? Just condemn all nationalists because of the actions of a few assholes that no-one condones. That's like saying that all English football fans are knuckle draggin thugs because of the actions of a few. Firstly, if you weren't such a tool judging without reading properly, you would notice that Farage's comments state 'I don't believe this was co-ordinated by the SNP', hinting more at some form of Scottish equivalent of the EDL. Whilst you would consider, example, all members of the EDL to be a BNP voter, that does not necessarily mean that all BNP voters are mindless EDL idiots. The same logic applies to Scotland, the SNP and perhaps some form of SDL should one exist. You put words in my mouth with your comments. I did not say all SNP members/voters are lunatics, if I did, please point out where? However, what I did say, is that given the events unfolded in Edinburgh, that it would not be your average joe from Edinburgh orchestrating the events that unfolded, which I will address below in the next bit. Secondly, please point out where I said I was a Scottish Political expert? However, clearly based on the wording of your reply, I know more than you. The evidence is clearly there. Take a look at the below; news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stmOh look, not a single SNP seat in either Glasgow or Edinburgh and in fact, not a single SNP seat south of the firth or forth - hence, your average joe from Edinburgh, would be a Labour or, at a push, Liberal Democrat voter as the results clearly show. Lastly, I started this thread to have mature debate on other people's thoughts on the events that unfolded, not to have it descend into childish nonsense like your post above. If you are who I think you are, I would think carefully before making some of the ill-educated, ill-thought out, badly worded and certainly misguided comments you did given the position you hold.
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jon
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Post by jon on May 17, 2013 10:54:12 GMT
I have explained to you in previous threads that support for the SNP is not based in local areas and that Glasgow being a Labour city is false.
The SNP very narrowly avoided winning the council elections here, and in the Scottish Parliament elections the SNP gained more votes than Labour.
Where I live, the Partick area of Glasgow (2 miles from the city centre), is a "gaelic" district. There are gaelic shops, the cash machines have gaelic translations in them. Hardly unionist.
The irony of Farage complaining about nationalism is beyond ridiculous. He is an utter cretin.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 10:56:01 GMT
Ukip really can't comment on racism and fascists, this is the party were members were flung out for supporting gay marriage and do you remember the member suspended for giving a nazi salute and having a knife in his teeth. Senior member Julia gasper also claimed gay people prefer sex with animals and you could write a really big book on the reason with gay people are more likely to molest kids. Not all ukip members are nutters but maybe they should get their own house in order before accusing others of being fascists. I don't disagree with you. But please see my other post for expansion to this reply, but removing the bits that are targeting at the person quoted.
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Billkmc
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Post by Billkmc on May 17, 2013 10:57:34 GMT
It would not surprise me if it was discovered that Farage staged this. No radical Indy have said it was their supporters that were rallied on twitter that morning. They wanted to let him know that his brand of closet racism wasnt welcome here(we have enough problems in scotland with bigotry we dont need him importing more haha),I think his over reaction is just an attempt to get as much publicity as he can and milk this whole incident for all it's worth.
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jon
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Post by jon on May 17, 2013 11:01:29 GMT
It's actually the complete opposite but you're right they're extremists. They're far left-wingers, students mostly, who protest because they believe UKIP is a step away from the BNP. Which, I agree with.
What should be pointed out though is the arrogance of the man to assume that Scotland vote, or would react to him in the exact same way as they would in England. His far-right ideas do not (on the whole) fit in with this left-leaning country.
There was no violence, a point that the media need to remember.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 11:11:20 GMT
Scottish Parliament elections the SNP gained more votes than Labour. This means little. Because it is a Scotland only election. If SNP support is so strong, why did at the last General Election did Labour gain double the SNP vote and the SNP barely gained more votes than the Tories. Is it that you Scottish do not trust the SNP to represent you in the Scottish Parliament? If you did, it would have been far easier to gain the referendum for independence with SNP MPs voting for it? There is a distinct difference between Holyrood and Westminster. Given that Labour does vastly overspend on the economy, I do not trust them with it. If I was Scottish, I would probably vote SNP too, as a way of showing frustration with the economic record of the other parties. Also with the SNP in Hollyrood, you know they are going to serve only Scottish interests, there would be no backhand or secret dealings with the English equivalent party as their would be with Labour, Tories or Lib Dem parties. However, I fail to see how you can weigh up support based on council elections or Scottish Parliament elections because I don't know about you, but I vote entirely different in a council election than I do in a general election. Why? Because I vote in a council election based on my LOCAL concerns, whichever party addresses those best, gets my vote. In a general election, I vote for the direction I want the country to go in. Therefore, based on that, I would say your evidence points more towards SNP Support to deal with local issues, but mistrust when it comes to Westminster and dealing with the direction of the country. But then this is the point of a debate
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 11:16:56 GMT
If you are who I think you are, I would think carefully before making some of the ill-educated, ill-thought out, badly worded and certainly misguided comments you did given the position you hold. What has my position with Flyers got to do with this? You come on here with your misguided comments about the SNP and you expect us not to hit back? I'm just glad you don't have a vote concerning independence - you obviously are ignorant of the facts. Given that I am not the one who is failing to present evidence with my comments and I am not personally attacking the views of anybody else, like you are, my comments clearly aren't misguided or unreasoned. Your position with Flyers is relevant because aggressively attacking the political views of others could be construed in the wrong way and land you in hot water, you wouldn't be the first or the last who jeopardise their position with a company/business/sporting club/charity that is supposed to be politically neutral by presenting your political views in an overly aggressive manner. EDIT:- And you've proven my exact point with your reply. If you believe I am misguided or disagree, justify your comments in reasoned fashion with the evidence that you believe supports your comments. There is no need for childishness. As I said, I started the thread to get a range of opinions, not for everyone to agree with me. But I also didn't start the thread for childish comments that do not bring anything constructive to said thread.
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jon
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Post by jon on May 17, 2013 11:21:02 GMT
The independence referendum was bourne out of a bill from the Scottish Parliament. The bill could not come from Westminster - it would not pass, at all. You would have less than 10 MPs voting for it! It had to come from Holyrood..
You could therefore assume that a large Glasgow support for the SNP at the Scottish Parliament is an indication for a support in Independence, or you it could be a protest vote. Who knows. But as someone who lives, works, socialises in Glasgow with Glaswegian people, I can tell you that a nationalist view isn't completely unusual. This ties in with your point about people voting in different elections for different things.
Also bear in mind Glasgow elected the Greens to Holyrood, another pro-indepence party.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 11:54:46 GMT
The independence referendum was bourne out of a bill from the Scottish Parliament. The bill could not come from Westminster - it would not pass, at all. You would have less than 10 MPs voting for it! It had to come from Holyrood.. You could therefore assume that a large Glasgow support for the SNP at the Scottish Parliament is an indication for a support in Independence, or you it could be a protest vote. Who knows. But as someone who lives, works, socialises in Glasgow with Glaswegian people, I can tell you that a nationalist view isn't completely unusual. This ties in with your point about people voting in different elections for different things. Also bear in mind Glasgow elected the Greens to Holyrood, another pro-indepence party. Precisely. But, if we're all honest, we all have a little nationalism in us born from love of our country and way of live. I talk to many people around here and they express some nationalistic views, but they that doesn't mean they will vote for a nationalist party in any election. A certain person said to me 'I don't like Labour or the Tories, but I vote Labour purely because I don't want them Tories'. So that person doesn't even vote for what they want, they vote against what they don't want.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 11:57:55 GMT
The independence referendum was bourne out of a bill from the Scottish Parliament. The bill could not come from Westminster - it would not pass, at all. You would have less than 10 MPs voting for it! It had to come from Holyrood.. Forgot to address this bit. You're right, but then what about issues say, the budget for Scotland, which is currently set by Westminster. Surely, whether outvoted or not, you would want the SNP fighting your corner in you believe in their cause? Funnily enough though, I think it's a bit funny to call it an 'independence' referendum when given that the SNP has previously stated desire to join the Eurozone (until it went balls up), it's more of a trade of being 'dictated to by Westminster' (A Scotsman's words not mine) to being dictated to by Brussels.
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spudeeelad
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Post by spudeeelad on May 17, 2013 12:01:20 GMT
And I think any anti-English sentiment isn't what it seems. I don't believe the Scottish are anti-English (if they were, it's definitely racism). However, I believe most of the Scottish are anti-Tory and stereotyping (which we're all guilty of), would say more 'them English' rather than 'them Tories'. Where i'm from, there is actually quite the surprising view from some that if Scotland did gain independence, that they would seek to somehow join with Scotland to get away from the Tories once and for all.
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jon
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Post by jon on May 17, 2013 12:57:52 GMT
The independence referendum was bourne out of a bill from the Scottish Parliament. The bill could not come from Westminster - it would not pass, at all. You would have less than 10 MPs voting for it! It had to come from Holyrood.. Forgot to address this bit. You're right, but then what about issues say, the budget for Scotland, which is currently set by Westminster. Surely, whether outvoted or not, you would want the SNP fighting your corner in you believe in their cause? Like your later post, a lot of people in 2010 election will have voted Labour to keep the tories out. Others are Labour through-and-through. They're clever enough to vote for different parties in different elections based on different priorities. I don't know many people who would state that Belgium is not an independent european state, so how would it be different for Scotland? Your point is the exact line Farage used - it's not very respectful towards the right of Scottish people to decide their own place in the world. It's merely stating that Scotland has to be dictacted to by someone, because we're not clever enough to be on our own. Note: For clarity, I'll restate I'm not for independence in it's current form, however I believe we have the right to decide. It's not for anyone with no connection with Scotland to tell us how to live.
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Post by jonathan on May 17, 2013 13:09:38 GMT
So a few assholes are representative of the SNP? Get a grip man. Some of the UKIP have been accused on National TV of being racist so does that make them all racist? You sit back in your 'wee hame' south of the border and suddenly you are an expert on Scottish Politics? You think that the SNP has only support from the remote areas? How naive are you? Just condemn all nationalists because of the actions of a few assholes that no-one condones. That's like saying that all English football fans are knuckle draggin thugs because of the actions of a few. Firstly, if you weren't such a tool judging without reading properly, you would notice that Farage's comments state 'I don't believe this was co-ordinated by the SNP', hinting more at some form of Scottish equivalent of the EDL. Whilst you would consider, example, all members of the EDL to be a BNP voter, that does not necessarily mean that all BNP voters are mindless EDL idiots. The same logic applies to Scotland, the SNP and perhaps some form of SDL should one exist. You put words in my mouth with your comments. I did not say all SNP members/voters are lunatics, if I did, please point out where? However, what I did say, is that given the events unfolded in Edinburgh, that it would not be your average joe from Edinburgh orchestrating the events that unfolded, which I will address below in the next bit. Secondly, please point out where I said I was a Scottish Political expert? However, clearly based on the wording of your reply, I know more than you. The evidence is clearly there. Take a look at the below; news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stmOh look, not a single SNP seat in either Glasgow or Edinburgh and in fact, not a single SNP seat south of the firth or forth - hence, your average joe from Edinburgh, would be a Labour or, at a push, Liberal Democrat voter as the results clearly show. Lastly, I started this thread to have mature debate on other people's thoughts on the events that unfolded, not to have it descend into childish nonsense like your post above. If you are who I think you are, I would think carefully before making some of the ill-educated, ill-thought out, badly worded and certainly misguided comments you did given the position you hold. Dude, go and provide a similar link to the last Scottish Govt elections. You might get a wee surprise.
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