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Post by daviejojo on Jan 23, 2013 12:52:26 GMT
As you all know, I am the power of positivity on this Forum :-)
But there are so many threads wandering off into the realms of officiating, thought I'd start a dedicated one.
What's your thoughts?
Don't envy the guys the job that's for sure, but is it just me, or are we seeing more basic errors, and missed penalties than ever before, and on the flip side, seeing silly ones called, which ultimately leads to frustration in the stands, and more importantly on the ice.
What's the fix? Is it all down to the officials? Are they getting the training, backing, and support needed from the EIHL.
Let's open this up, and see what we can come up with as constructive comments, who knows, we might even come up with an idea the league may like.
For me, it's back to Sponsorship of the officials as the first step, and with that sponsorship, look to bring a full time official who has vast experience in. (I don't mean Hanson either), I'm talking someone from across the pond if we can.
If changes don't happen, someone is going to get seriously hurt, or potentially even killed on someones watch, and we simply can't allow that to happen.
I look forward to your words of Wisdom Flyers Fans
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kdd
Rookie
Posts: 136
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Post by kdd on Jan 23, 2013 13:13:10 GMT
If changes don't happen, someone is going to get seriously hurt, or potentially even killed on someones watch, and we simply can't allow that to happen. No matter how bad a referee is, the only person who can injure a player is a fellow player - a referee can't get someone hurt as has been suggested many times on this forum and on the Facebook page. The referee's being gash is a fair point but the ultimate responsibility for player safety has to rest with the players themselves.
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Post by penguin on Jan 23, 2013 13:45:14 GMT
What's the fix? Is it all down to the officials? Are they getting the training, backing, and support needed from the EIHL. The officials get no support or training from the league, so it probably explains a lot. I don't believe that any ref from what I have seen has ever been biased towards one team. Always bad decisions for both teams
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Post by daviejojo on Jan 23, 2013 13:50:36 GMT
If changes don't happen, someone is going to get seriously hurt, or potentially even killed on someones watch, and we simply can't allow that to happen. No matter how bad a referee is, the only person who can injure a player is a fellow player - a referee can't get someone hurt as has been suggested many times on this forum and on the Facebook page. The referee's being gash is a fair point but the ultimate responsibility for player safety has to rest with the players themselves. I do agree in principle, although, some of the injuries happen due to retrabutions due to the original penalty or foul not being called. Players take the law into their own hands, so I think whilst the ref's cannot be held fully accountable for players actions, there is an element of responsibility to make the game as safe as possible, and make the right decisions.
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Post by daviejojo on Jan 23, 2013 13:51:19 GMT
What's the fix? Is it all down to the officials? Are they getting the training, backing, and support needed from the EIHL. The officials get no support or training from the league, so it probably explains a lot. I don't believe that any ref from what I have seen has ever been biased towards one team. Always bad decisions for both teams I'd agree with that, I don't think it's bias, I think its more down to the quality of the officiating sometimes we see.
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Post by joestoyanovich on Jan 23, 2013 15:50:44 GMT
Referee's in any sport have the hardest job going, perhaps even more so in ice hockey due to the speed of the play.
Its easy to rag the ref from the stands and moan about them on forums but you have to remember that we do this from a completely biased point of view.
Our loyalties are pinned to one side, we do not see things from a neutral perspective. A hit delivered by a Flyers player is greeted with huge applause, a hit on a Flyers player calls for a penalty. Every offside given against the Flyers was never offside, every offside given against our opposition was definetly correct. You know what I mean.
Unless a referee is completely biased, and there is no evidence that I have seen that this is the case, we just have to let them get on with it. Fans berating refereeing performances has been going on for decades Reilly, McWilliams, Hanson etc etc.
If anyone fancies their job step forward I'm sure there are plenty vacancies. Just remember that no matter what decision you make somebodies gonna think it was c***.
As for players potentially getting killed because of poor refereeing, come on davejojo your cleverer than that !
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Post by nobabody on Jan 23, 2013 15:54:39 GMT
not sure what kind if any support/training the refs get but have to say judging by the players reactions, and i'm talking about players of all clubs here, the standard of refereeing is way below expectations. we are getting more and more imports into this league and they are used to a higher standard than they are getting. The league has to address this.
i'd suggest looking at how other countries develop their referees and linos, otherwise i'd look to do something like this bring in someone from a top 10 nation/league as consultant and/or providor of regular training and support both in close season and throughout the season. we need 10 refs on the same programme, at each game one refereeing and one watching then debriefing afterwards both ref and linos. this should include their own filming of the match taken from one static camera covering the whole ice-pad. the officials need to be officiating different teams each night, and not the same team night after night, week after week. there also has to be incentive and opportunity for those not currently used by the EIHL to get on the list i'd make sure that no coach is permitted to call out to the ref by his first name during the game as i think Doug Christiansen did at Fife, thats unprofessional. as is officials laughing and joking with coaching staff and players during the game, there needs to be a healthy professional distance/respect maintained, (i'd use rugby as an example) The officials didn't like the abuse they were receiving during the matches, well they can't have the opposite either. No matter what they think, that also influences their decision making, so it should stop.
thats my rambling opinion, hope it doesn't read too badly
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Post by daviejojo on Jan 23, 2013 16:42:05 GMT
Referee's in any sport have the hardest job going, perhaps even more so in ice hockey due to the speed of the play. Its easy to rag the ref from the stands and moan about them on forums but you have to remember that we do this from a completely biased point of view. Our loyalties are pinned to one side, we do not see things from a neutral perspective. A hit delivered by a Flyers player is greeted with huge applause, a hit on a Flyers player calls for a penalty. Every offside given against the Flyers was never offside, every offside given against our opposition was definetly correct. You know what I mean. Unless a referee is completely biased, and there is no evidence that I have seen that this is the case, we just have to let them get on with it. Fans berating refereeing performances has been going on for decades Reilly, McWilliams, Hanson etc etc. If anyone fancies their job step forward I'm sure there are plenty vacancies. Just remember that no matter what decision you make somebodies gonna think it was c***. As for players potentially getting killed because of poor refereeing, come on davejojo your cleverer than that ! Okay Okay, maybe Killed is a wee bit of an overstatement ;D You know what I mean though. More refs are definitely the way forward though, maybe all the Flyers fans should sign up :-)
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Post by waterboy on Jan 23, 2013 17:19:10 GMT
Actually I try and call the game as i see it, I certainly dont howl because someone touched a flyers player i like watching hard physical hockey, i always call it as I see it and feel that I enough experience to make sound calls on what I see. That said some of the calls that have been given out to every team in FIA this year have been amongst some of the worst I have seen.
Take Saturday for example, Tommy Muir standing still beside his net the puck lands at his feet following a shot. AJ McLean skates in hits tommy and they both end up in a heap on the ice. tommy gets called for interference now I am happy for someone to point out why this was called because where I was sitting this was never a penalty I don't see how it could have been called. Unless the ref is seeing things we/I cant. How often do we see players from both sides look around with no idea why penaltys are called.
The refs do have a hell of a job but the biggest issue (and you can ask any player this) is a complete lack of consistency. I will use Neil Wilson as an example for this. Nothing gets called in the first period then the exact same play gets a player from either side sent off in the second period then again later in the game the same play happens but with a player form the other team no penalty called.
It drives players and coaches round the twist usually followed by a reaction which is then called causing the frustration level to go higher..see Oor Jeff for example.
All I ask is be fair and make the same call to both teams throughout the game no more than that.
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ronniemac
Pro
Posts: 1,520
NHL Team: Chicago Blackhawks
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Post by ronniemac on Jan 23, 2013 21:01:00 GMT
A good few years ago there was a small training school for referees but that fell by the wayside, it is very easy to become one as there are hardly any applicants, it is very political / cliquey though and people can get easily upset thats why Fife had 4 refs pack in at the same time around 7 years ago. Quite honestly the calls we see today are ridiculous at times and thats because some twat decided on a zero tolerance programme.......... ice-hockey is a tough game and now we see games being spoiled by very soft calls that turn a nothing happened game into a 40minute time span power play.......its ridiculous and quite honestly spoils a game. The worst example of that was a game done by Oke Alm at Kirkcaldy with over 100 mins in penalties all for 2 min minors, i think the game lasted over 3hrs. It is really great to officiate in a game,a buzz that never goes away its a shame that we have some officials now that have never held a hockey stick and don't know what players get upset with and prepared to put up with. I watch games all the time and if i had a notebook for all the mistakes i see it would be full, some have to be seen to be believed but i can say this there are a few guys way out of their depth at EIHL level especially on the line.
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Post by Goalie on Jan 24, 2013 8:46:35 GMT
Referee's in any sport have the hardest job going, perhaps even more so in ice hockey due to the speed of the play. Its easy to rag the ref from the stands and moan about them on forums but you have to remember that we do this from a completely biased point of view. Our loyalties are pinned to one side, we do not see things from a neutral perspective. A hit delivered by a Flyers player is greeted with huge applause, a hit on a Flyers player calls for a penalty. Every offside given against the Flyers was never offside, every offside given against our opposition was definetly correct. You know what I mean. Unless a referee is completely biased, and there is no evidence that I have seen that this is the case, we just have to let them get on with it. Fans berating refereeing performances has been going on for decades Reilly, McWilliams, Hanson etc etc. If anyone fancies their job step forward I'm sure there are plenty vacancies. Just remember that no matter what decision you make somebodies gonna think it was c***. As for players potentially getting killed because of poor refereeing, come on davejojo your cleverer than that ! I seriously don't think you give a lot of fans credit by posting this, well, nonsense. Not all fans wear rose tinted specs, I stand and think at times, how the hell was that not called offside. Or what a great hit by them, blah blah you get my point, I just want to see fair consistent refs, we don't get that, and players ARE getting hurt because of this and players and coaches are getting fines and bans cos of them now also, now when players coaches and fans from both sides, in the same game are shouting it from the rooftops, you know something is seriously wrong
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Post by ojc123 on Jan 24, 2013 9:42:16 GMT
As for players potentially getting killed because of poor refereeing, come on davejojo your cleverer than that ! Potentially is the key word. Inconsistent refereeing leads to frustration. Frustration leads to rash actions. Rash actions lead to injuries. We've had a few concussions these past two seasons. It isn't impossible to imagine a situation where an awkward hit MIGHT lead to a fatality. (Rigid plexi at the Rink doesn't help.) The poor refereeing may not cause the injuries but I'm fairly certain it contributes to the behaviour which causes the injuries. On topic, how much do the referees get paid? What training and support do they actually receive? What is the level of fitness required? How often do they get feedback from other officials watching the game? I guess I'm asking if the referees are as professional as the players they are refereeing. I tend to think the game is too fast for them and they cannot possibly see everything. On the other hand, sometimes I wonder how they can miss so much. I suspect the current referees are simply not up to the demands of the EIHL. I agree that referees are rarely biased. The only time I've ever considered that was Mr Staniforth in a game at Hull in the BNL days. I think it was Spadafora who was thrown out for saying pretty much the same thing. (May have been someone else.)
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Post by coloradoflyer on Jan 24, 2013 9:57:11 GMT
mind you what real training have the refs here been given don't think they have been given pro training
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watcher
Junior
Posts: 710
EIHL Team: Fife Flyers
NHL Team: Vancouver Canucks
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Post by watcher on Jan 24, 2013 11:06:19 GMT
www.eliteleague.co.uk/honour-for-uk-officials--p179505The above link was on the EIHL site in October. So some of our officials are getting international recognition and, I assume, must be watched/vetted to get to this position. This is good for our league. However - look at the names. Do you remember seeing any of these guys officiate at a game you have watched north of the border? Maybe on a couple of occasions? Are they getting more training/support because of where they are based to let them reach this level? Is it a case of a postcode lottery operating when refereeing schedules are drawn up. I realise that these guys will have other jobs (like many of our Brits) but they must have their games spread around the different venues in the league to keep things on a level playing field (ice).
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ronniemac
Pro
Posts: 1,520
NHL Team: Chicago Blackhawks
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Post by ronniemac on Jan 24, 2013 11:11:34 GMT
Basically there is no training its all learned on the hoof. You do have to sit a written test on the rules to get an indication as to which level you will end up at however unbelieveably skating is pretty much overlooked, there are referees who can't skate backwards or even cross-overs to turn........... watch out for them. It used to be the case you worked your way up whilst learning on the way to referee at the highest level but that went out the window with a guy who went straight from zero to doing BNL games in the middle whilst still getting skating lessons...........it was a face fit thing and we are suffering for that today.
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