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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 2, 2013 12:06:05 GMT
harlan, I don't have the time or the inclination to post to the same extent as davidgee has so eloquently done but you really do need to understand what he is saying. You are basically being Fife specific and ignoring the rest of the country. I believe that ALL Fife Brits are not full time hockey players - other teams' Brits are! The most talented and dedicated Brits will still make it if they are driven enough and have the correct junior coaching. I don't dare to know enough about the quality if coaching but I would hazard a guess that lack of proper facilities and 'decent' ice time is a worse hurdle to overcome. My own view is to get rid of any import limit and allow teams to be more competitive by being able to sign young imports who would be better than a bod standard Brit and cost in many cases even less as they would be aiming to showcase themselves for the future in say Europe as opposed to 'many' Brits who aim to supplement their income with a part time hockey job. Reclass of dual nats would also be a step forward as again for arguably a smaller cost to teams as the better Brits you could bring hungry young guys over to show their worth. I understand and fully accept this may not be the way Fife or you want to go down but that does not make it wrong for the overall benefit of UK hockey and certainly does not stifle the ambition of the elite Brits. Currently only a few teams can afford the best UK players - other teams would immediately become more competitive with dual nats or unlimited imports at an affordable level. Brits who want to play part time can do so in lower leagues or even in the top league if any club wants to play them but their worth will correctly in my view decrease. Worth considering?
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Post by harlan on Jun 2, 2013 13:19:00 GMT
Dual nationals would immediately and drastically increase the budgets of teams as they would become in as much of a demand as the high end Brit players. The vast supply of Brits wouldn't be increased because dual nationals aren't British and they never should be classed as British. Where you grew up and learn your hockey should always determine whether you are an import in this country, you should not have a right to come and play here just because you have a passport that says you should. I don't understand what your point is with my stats for the leagues you mentioned. The percentage of non homegrown players playing in those leagues aren't dual nationals, they are classed as imports. The Swedish league had 13 dual nationals out of 320 players for the 12 teams last season The Finnish league had 18 dual nationals out of 412 players for the 14 teams The Swiss league had 58 dual nationals out of 374 players for the 12 teams In Russia it was 71 dual nationals out of 777 players for the 26 teams So out of 1,883 players from 64 teams only 160 were dual nationals, thats less than 9% or 2.5 dual nationals per team. Hardly making the huge impact on the top leagues in Europe you are suggesting. The British players are out there, teams just have to give them the opportunity to play at Elite level. Your argument that reducing imports to 9 will increase wage demands of Brits is ridiculous as there will be a greater pool of British players to choose from thereby automatically reducing the wage demands of the Brits, its simple supply and demand-the more you have of something the less it costs. This then gives you more of your budget to spend on better quality imports as you need to spend less on them because you have less of them in your team, this in turn increases the quality of the hockey because you are watching better quality players and those better quality imports raise the playing standard of the Brits who then become better players and increase the quality of the hockey and increases the pool of Brits and round and round it keeps going. You bring dual nationals in to this country you spend your budget on them rather than spending it on British guys and you never have local trained guys wanting to play for their local team. Sticking Brits on the ice with good quality imports does work, not immediately, but over a season or two it most definitely works. I couldn't give a toss whether other European leagues laugh at us or not. This is a British hockey league and British trained players should have the opportunity to get to play in it. Just now not enough of them are There is so much wrong with this post I don't really know where to start but I'll give it a go. Dual-Nationals do not increase teams budgets!!! If Dundee were going to have a budget of £300,000 next season, they would not suddenly increase it or raise it to £500,000 just because people with British passports count as British players. There are players in the NCAA,CIS, OHL etc. who have British passports and are cheap. Say there are currently 60 Brits capable of playing in the EIHL and you increase that number to 250 then the prices of current Brits comes down. It's simply economics, if there is the same demand but supply is massively bigger then prices go down. It will give teams a much bigger choice and they won't be held to ransom by some british players who know they can demand inflated wages because they have no competition. I'm not quite sure what you thought I was making out with the quotes of the leagues but I was showing and you have done it again how you are contradicting yourself. Those leagues are allowed to have players with the relevant passports count the same as homegrown players yet as you say 'they don't have a massive impact' but you said that 'dual-nats would prevent home-gorwn players playing at the highest level in this country'! So my question is why does having this rule have such a little impact on the leagues quoted? Why would we not be the same? If you think the British Players are out there, name them? Please list them? They will never come up they like should from the EPL due to being part-time and location so they are almost out the question. Once again your outdated theory of British players improving by just sticking them out there despite their talent and potential is wrong, It has never worked and never will work. The Key as displayed in every single successful hockey nation is having great junior development systems, something we do not have in this country. We hype up our development systems such as the Kirkcaldy/Fife one which is in actual fact pretty rubbish. Dropping the import limit just raises the price of Brits. If you increase the demand and not the supply then price rises. Your ideology of people with British passports not counting/never should be able to count the same as British people is a discriminatory, dinosaur approach. You were unable to answer my question of why no other league in the world counts the relevant passport holders as imports because you quite clearly don't have an answer. Todd Dutiaume has lived in this country for 16/17 years. He married a local girl. He loves Fife and considers it his home. He has a British passport but still you think it is right to discriminate against him?? This backward, dinosaur theory is even more outdated than 'the fife way' and in fact I don't know how they get away with it as it is actually against British law And equally there is so much wrong with this post that sums why hockey in this country has so many short sighted people in it. How does having dual nationals not increase your teams budget? There aren't that many dual nationals that would want to come and play in this country which would make them at a premium and therefore cost a lot to employ, its much better giving an up and coming local British guy shot who would cost far less therefore giving you more to spend on a better quality import. Its common sense. Exactly right if you have 60 Brits playing in the league and then increase it to 250 the cost of the Brits come down, as I said supply and demand- the more Brits you have playing the less they will cost so you reduce the import limit to get more British trained players playing at the highest level and that will decrease the wage demands of Brits. Glad you agree Of course the other way to do it is not pay the Brits such high wages, where will they play if nobody pays them those ridiculous wages. Brits who could play at Elite level. Joe Greener,Greg Owen,Matthew Selby,Dean Holland, James Archer,Richard Bentham,Luke Bothroyd, Leigh Jamieson, the Ferrara brothers. There are lots more. Those leagues have unlimited imports from the EU but yet they still use more of their home grown players rather than go down the dual national or import route.Why do you think that is? If dual nationals have such little impact on those leagues, why have them at all? There is no point and equally no point to having them here. Because Todd has a British passport does not mean he should automatically not count against the import limit. He is Canadian because that is where he learned to play hockey. It doesn't get much simpler or clearer than that as that allows local BRITISH trained players to play in a BRITISH league. If you want to watch dual nationals then as you say there are plenty of European leagues that allow them to go and watch them in those leagues How well are the junior systems in the west of Scotland then? How many local players from Glasgow or Ayr have played for the Clan? I bet more players coming through the rubbish Fife junior system have played at Elite level than anybody from the west junior systems and will get more chance to in the future than local players will ever get at the Clan. Your dinosaur approach of not wanting British trained players is discriminatory. Why would you not want local players to play for their local team. I just will never understand why people would adopt this attitude of wanting to see guys who have come up through their junior systems playing at the highest level they can rather than continually buy in mercenaries who have no connection to their community who will move as soon as a more money is waved at them
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Post by heggig on Jun 2, 2013 13:23:43 GMT
If you think the British Players are out there, name them? Please list them? They will never come up they like should from the EPL due to being part-time and location so they are almost out the question. Once again your outdated theory of British players improving by just sticking them out there despite their talent and potential is wrong, It has never worked and never will work. The Key as displayed in every single successful hockey nation is having great junior development systems, something we do not have in this country. We hype up our development systems such as the Kirkcaldy/Fife one which is in actual fact pretty rubbish. Dropping the import limit just raises the price of Brits. If you increase the demand and not the supply then price rises. Increasing the import limit and allowing dual-nationals is short-termism. The top Brits will not be on as big a wage but there will also be less of them working with higher level imports. It's training and playing with guys that level that help the Brits improve more than playing solely with guys at their level. If teams don't need so many Brits then they do not have any incentive to improve their junior developement. If you just want to see a higher level of hockey immediately and have no care for the domestic players and national team then remove the import level but if you want to see the league and national team succesful and no longer a laughing stock then you need to improve the supply of higher quality Brits. It also make long term financial sense as you now no longer have to pay so many imports TIC cards, flights and accomodation to pay for. Short term pain for long term gain.
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Post by harlan on Jun 2, 2013 13:33:46 GMT
If some fans want to see less imports or dual nationals I am sure there is a Fife team in the SNL. As I know a few Fife fans are happy that Flyers took the jump into the EIHL, and let's not forget Fife knew the import limits before entry so forget about less imports IMO. I am for unlimited imports but a minimum Brits per roster that limit can be set by EIHL, as its wrong that a average Brit can earn more than a better import just because he was born here. And having the Dual Nationals would help us progress back up a division in World Championships, lets not forget the recent World Championship opponents all had Dual Nationals except our GB team that got relegated. If memory serves me correct Italy had 9 dual nationals. I pay good money to watch the best hockey in the UK, if I just wanted to watch locals I could go watch Edinburgh Capitals SNL team or Paisley Pirates. I am from West Lothian and not a weegie as few Fife fans think all Clan fans are from Glasgow which they are not.[/quote And this is equally short sighted as this will bankrupt so many clubs and end up with there not being a league to play on or end up with a league of only 4 teams because it just is finacially viable or don't you learn from the lessons from the "No Scots Allowed" in Ayr or the Storm in Manchester, you cant' throw money at unlimitless imports it just isn't there to do it, the sport isn't big enough to do it Having a reduction in the import level would clearly increase the number of Brits which brings the wage demands of those Brits down as there are more to choose from. Why should a very average import take away a spot of a locally trained up and coming Brit and there are some incredibly average imports in the Elite league Yes we knew the import level before we applied and entered the league and joined in the belief that the import level would be decreasing over the years, not increasing. I want to watch the best hockey I can as well but believe that can be done with a high quality imports and locally trained Brits and I believe that the number of imports should be decreasing by one at least every two years so that the playing level of Brits increases and the number of British trained players increases as well
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finchy
Pro
Posts: 1,567
EIHL Team: Fife Flyers
NHL Team: New Jersey Devil
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Post by finchy on Jun 2, 2013 13:41:53 GMT
Just reading through this thread and it's a really interesting debate. Just an early warning here though for posters to refrain from being abusive or personal towards each other- we can argue our points without resorting to that. Last thing as a moderator I want to do is lock a good thread for that reason.
Cheers- and let the debate continue!
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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 2, 2013 14:29:06 GMT
There are lots of Brits who, IMHO want to play part time hockey, almost every one harlan mentioned being amongst them.
They make a better living from hobby hockey and that's their decision.
I want to see the commited Brits who make the sacrifices to play full time - them and the young dual nats (of which there are loads in North America) who would come over and play for little just to prove themselves.
I would strongly argue they would be cheaper and would defo increase the standard of play in the UK domestically and with the National Team.
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Post by Dirkster23 on Jun 2, 2013 16:10:11 GMT
If some fans want to see less imports or dual nationals I am sure there is a Fife team in the SNL. As I know a few Fife fans are happy that Flyers took the jump into the EIHL, and let's not forget Fife knew the import limits before entry so forget about less imports IMO. I am for unlimited imports but a minimum Brits per roster that limit can be set by EIHL, as its wrong that a average Brit can earn more than a better import just because he was born here. And having the Dual Nationals would help us progress back up a division in World Championships, lets not forget the recent World Championship opponents all had Dual Nationals except our GB team that got relegated. If memory serves me correct Italy had 9 dual nationals. I pay good money to watch the best hockey in the UK, if I just wanted to watch locals I could go watch Edinburgh Capitals SNL team or Paisley Pirates. I am from West Lothian and not a weegie as few Fife fans think all Clan fans are from Glasgow which they are not.[/quote And this is equally short sighted as this will bankrupt so many clubs and end up with there not being a league to play on or end up with a league of only 4 teams because it just is finacially viable or don't you learn from the lessons from the "No Scots Allowed" in Ayr or the Storm in Manchester, you cant' throw money at unlimitless imports it just isn't there to do it, the sport isn't big enough to do it Having a reduction in the import level would clearly increase the number of Brits which brings the wage demands of those Brits down as there are more to choose from. Why should a very average import take away a spot of a locally trained up and coming Brit and there are some incredibly average imports in the Elite league Yes we knew the import level before we applied and entered the league and joined in the belief that the import level would be decreasing over the years, not increasing. I want to watch the best hockey I can as well but believe that can be done with a high quality imports and locally trained Brits and I believe that the number of imports should be decreasing by one at least every two years so that the playing level of Brits increases and the number of British trained players increases as well Surely it only decreases the wages of the top Brits if the others you bring in are of the same standard? Where are all theses guys that could just walk into the EIHL? Flyers would be mental to ask for a decrease in the import numbers this season. As it stands, we've lost our only 2 British forwards that were good enough to be taking a slot on the 1st or 2nd line. Unless we can bring another Brit in, we really need to be able to run with at least 6 import forwards to roll 3 lines. We'd all love to see a Flyers team with 6 or 7 EIHL standard local guys, but I think that's a few years off. Edit: Just noticed the players you've listed above. How many of these guys are willing to move to Fife as a part time player?
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Post by clanfandoug on Jun 2, 2013 16:32:18 GMT
Dirkster I agree mate as a Clan fan I would love Brits in my team but only if they are good enough, not just because they are Brits. As I have said above want to watch the best hockey in UK for the money I pay not just to watch hockey because they are Brits, as I said we have SNL for this. Import limit should no way be reduced and should be abolished IMO, as all it does is give the bigger teams in EIHL all the top Brits and overpriced Brits and leaving the mid table teams scraping about for average Brits to hopefully fill roster. With a no limit and Dual Nationals count as Brits this benefits the league as a whole and GB team also like other National teams that play to their strengths with dual nationals not like us recently and being relegated!! If the Brits are good enough they will still get into teams but the league should also have a minimum Brits per roster so we are not leaving them out just incase all teams went with whole roster of imports. As I said want to watch best hockey I pay for. This moving on to the league and conference system and in no way if we are going to keep conference system should it be like it is just now, what I mean with this all games should have points in conference and EIHL standings not points just counting in own conference. Come end of regular season each conference top 4 play in their own conference 1v4 2v3 and the 2 from each conference goto playoff weekend a best of 3 is only one extra game and seeding would count for extra game. If the team that has extra game cant get ice time then they loose the option of home advantage and other team gets home advantage with proceeds split. I know the Erhardt teams wont be up for that as they are more or less loosing 2 slots at the weekend but tough they cant have it all ways, if they want conference set up then this is correct way not the icing on the cake like it is now for them having all the games against each other and getting better chance for playoff weekend. In ideal world we would have a best of series in the playoffs but ice time is the problem so each conference playing each other in own conference to qualify well its good enough for NHL is it not and playoff title is the main one not league as we have conference set up!
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Post by davidgee on Jun 2, 2013 16:36:58 GMT
There is so much wrong with this post I don't really know where to start but I'll give it a go. Dual-Nationals do not increase teams budgets!!! If Dundee were going to have a budget of £300,000 next season, they would not suddenly increase it or raise it to £500,000 just because people with British passports count as British players. There are players in the NCAA,CIS, OHL etc. who have British passports and are cheap. Say there are currently 60 Brits capable of playing in the EIHL and you increase that number to 250 then the prices of current Brits comes down. It's simply economics, if there is the same demand but supply is massively bigger then prices go down. It will give teams a much bigger choice and they won't be held to ransom by some british players who know they can demand inflated wages because they have no competition. I'm not quite sure what you thought I was making out with the quotes of the leagues but I was showing and you have done it again how you are contradicting yourself. Those leagues are allowed to have players with the relevant passports count the same as homegrown players yet as you say 'they don't have a massive impact' but you said that 'dual-nats would prevent home-gorwn players playing at the highest level in this country'! So my question is why does having this rule have such a little impact on the leagues quoted? Why would we not be the same? If you think the British Players are out there, name them? Please list them? They will never come up they like should from the EPL due to being part-time and location so they are almost out the question. Once again your outdated theory of British players improving by just sticking them out there despite their talent and potential is wrong, It has never worked and never will work. The Key as displayed in every single successful hockey nation is having great junior development systems, something we do not have in this country. We hype up our development systems such as the Kirkcaldy/Fife one which is in actual fact pretty rubbish. Dropping the import limit just raises the price of Brits. If you increase the demand and not the supply then price rises. Your ideology of people with British passports not counting/never should be able to count the same as British people is a discriminatory, dinosaur approach. You were unable to answer my question of why no other league in the world counts the relevant passport holders as imports because you quite clearly don't have an answer. Todd Dutiaume has lived in this country for 16/17 years. He married a local girl. He loves Fife and considers it his home. He has a British passport but still you think it is right to discriminate against him?? This backward, dinosaur theory is even more outdated than 'the fife way' and in fact I don't know how they get away with it as it is actually against British law And equally there is so much wrong with this post that sums why hockey in this country has so many short sighted people in it. How does having dual nationals not increase your teams budget? There aren't that many dual nationals that would want to come and play in this country which would make them at a premium and therefore cost a lot to employ, its much better giving an up and coming local British guy shot who would cost far less therefore giving you more to spend on a better quality import. Its common sense. Exactly right if you have 60 Brits playing in the league and then increase it to 250 the cost of the Brits come down, as I said supply and demand- the more Brits you have playing the less they will cost so you reduce the import limit to get more British trained players playing at the highest level and that will decrease the wage demands of Brits. Glad you agree Of course the other way to do it is not pay the Brits such high wages, where will they play if nobody pays them those ridiculous wages. Brits who could play at Elite level. Joe Greener,Greg Owen,Matthew Selby,Dean Holland, James Archer,Richard Bentham,Luke Bothroyd, Leigh Jamieson, the Ferrara brothers. There are lots more. Those leagues have unlimited imports from the EU but yet they still use more of their home grown players rather than go down the dual national or import route.Why do you think that is? If dual nationals have such little impact on those leagues, why have them at all? There is no point and equally no point to having them here. Because Todd has a British passport does not mean he should automatically not count against the import limit. He is Canadian because that is where he learned to play hockey. It doesn't get much simpler or clearer than that as that allows local BRITISH trained players to play in a BRITISH league. If you want to watch dual nationals then as you say there are plenty of European leagues that allow them to go and watch them in those leagues How well are the junior systems in the west of Scotland then? How many local players from Glasgow or Ayr have played for the Clan? I bet more players coming through the rubbish Fife junior system have played at Elite level than anybody from the west junior systems and will get more chance to in the future than local players will ever get at the Clan. Your dinosaur approach of not wanting British trained players is discriminatory. Why would you not want local players to play for their local team. I just will never understand why people would adopt this attitude of wanting to see guys who have come up through their junior systems playing at the highest level they can rather than continually buy in mercenaries who have no connection to their community who will move as soon as a more money is waved at them I think you far, far under-estimate the amount of players out there who are able to get British passports if they don't already have them who are suitable for the EIHL. You are looking at a number which is most likely well over 100 and a lot of those players would look at the EIHL as a good option especially those coming out the NCAA, CIS, CHL (WHL,OHL etc.). Speak to Todd/Danny and ask them how many messages they get a week from players saying they have a British passport and want to come and play here. It wouldn't surprise me if its 3 or 4 a week. I'm glad you listed that list of Brits, perfect example of what I was talking about: Owen - Retired Greener - Doesn't want to move from South, also has a job outside hockey in the area Selby - Already playing EIHL with Coventry Holland - No where near good enough despite having more than enough attempts. Can barely cut it in EPL and also has big home sickness issues Archer - Part-timer in Yorkshire area, has his own business so can't move Bentham - No where near good enough, ENL 2 seasons ago and trying to establish himself at EPL level let alone EIHL Boothroyd - Part-timer, works in Manchester Jamieson - Part-timer, works in Milton Keynes and unwilling to play in the EIHL J.Ferrera - showed no signs of any potential at Nottingham - just ask their fans. Seems to be doing better in EPL that is seemingly his level L.Ferrera - plenty of potential and will play in the EIHL in the coming years. He is not ready yet though and that is coming from all the Peterborough fans who watch him every week Next? You want to know the reason all those leagues which accept dual-nats the same as homegrown imports still tend to go with the homegrown players. Well firstly hockey aside someone for example with a German Passport has the same rights as any other person with a German passport. In a lot of European countries the sport has a much higher profile so they wouldn't be able to get away with discriminating against German people. In the UK they can get away with it because of how low the profile is. Hockey wise, these countries have excellent junior development systems and producing quality players who have the ability and potential to play in the top leagues. The players though aren't able to demand more money than they are worth though because any team can just turn around and look for a cheaper alternative from anywhere they like. This in turn brings the players salaries to the level they are actually worth and in most cases when they want to go earn more money they move to a league abroad. If the Swedish league paid the Swedish players more than the NHL pays them then their wouldn't be 62 Swedish players in the NHL. This is another problem with the current system. British players are gifted a place based on where they were born, never face competition and never go abroad because they are paid inflated wages here, more than they are worth so they never have the need to go abroad and play in a better league. This in turn makes the British team worse. There are other hockey reasons as well why it is beneficial. Also so going by what you said in that a British player is someone who is trained here, then say a player born in Fife played hockey in the states between the ages of 10-17 to try and make the NHL but then returned to the UK at the age of 18 he should be counted as an import You then resort to telling me If I want to go watch leagues full of dual-nationals I should go watch some European League Can you show me where I said I wanted to watch a league full of dual-nationals? Seems to me like you still don't have an answer to my original question so just resorting to basically telling me to clear off Onto the development systems and your trying to ask me to how well they are doing in the west of Scotland compared to Fife. Its like comparing a non-existent turd to a turd ;D So the Fife system is apparently doing well because it has produced a few part-time players who are gifted places in the EIHL due to where they are born and more than a team that has been around for 3 years Is this what a good development system is? How many NHL scouts have heard of the Fife development system? How many CHL (WHL,OHL, QMJHL) scouts have heard of it and drafted players. In fact how many players ever produced in Fife have actually gone on to play abroad or do anything better than playing in the top league in Britain ever, 0? You want to know what an actual proper good development system is like just look at the program they have in Jesenice, Slovenia. A city with a population of 13,000 (Fife - 365,000) currently has a player playing in the NHL (Anze Kopitar), 3 players in the DEL, 5 in the EBEL, soon to be 3 in the Allsvenskan plus many players who have played in the top Czech, Swedish leagues along with having players NHL drafted and CHL drafted. In fact watch out for Luka Gracner at this years NHL draft, likely to be highly drafted - just the latest product of what is actually a proper example of a good development system. You then go on to say 'Your dinosaur approach of not wanting British trained players is discriminatory'......erm, where have I said I don't want any British trained players in the league? Seems your argument has been found out and now your resorting to making stuff up. I am not the one advocating something that is against British law.
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Post by clanfandoug on Jun 2, 2013 16:37:13 GMT
1 club 1 vote so can't let south teams get all their own way!
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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 2, 2013 16:49:26 GMT
Good educational post davidgee, I really, really hope harlan and anyone else with his outdated views reads and more importantly understands what you are saying.
You make point that is rarely thought of.
Fife may well have a 'decent' junior set up but when was the the last really top class current Brit it produced - talking full time hockey player here?
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Post by davidgee on Jun 2, 2013 17:40:08 GMT
If you think the British Players are out there, name them? Please list them? They will never come up they like should from the EPL due to being part-time and location so they are almost out the question. Once again your outdated theory of British players improving by just sticking them out there despite their talent and potential is wrong, It has never worked and never will work. The Key as displayed in every single successful hockey nation is having great junior development systems, something we do not have in this country. We hype up our development systems such as the Kirkcaldy/Fife one which is in actual fact pretty rubbish. Dropping the import limit just raises the price of Brits. If you increase the demand and not the supply then price rises. Increasing the import limit and allowing dual-nationals is short-termism. The top Brits will not be on as big a wage but there will also be less of them working with higher level imports. It's training and playing with guys that level that help the Brits improve more than playing solely with guys at their level. If teams don't need so many Brits then they do not have any incentive to improve their junior developement. If you just want to see a higher level of hockey immediately and have no care for the domestic players and national team then remove the import level but if you want to see the league and national team succesful and no longer a laughing stock then you need to improve the supply of higher quality Brits. It also make long term financial sense as you now no longer have to pay so many imports TIC cards, flights and accomodation to pay for. Short term pain for long term gain. It's not short-termism. Players simply training and playing with guys at a higher level isn't going to improve the situation here. If that is the case then who cares whether you have even played hockey before, can even skate etc. Stick me out there! Going by your theory I will be EIHL ready after a few years As I have been banging on about the key to improving home-grown players is dramatically improving what are currently rubbish junior systems. By the time a player is 17 you should have a good idea of what their potential is, hence why the NHL hold the draft for players this age. There seems to be a mentality here that every British player is good enough, everyone should play at the top level and be given a go no matter how good they are or their potential. This is as far away as you can get from having a good developmental system. What we need is vigorous competition throughout the junior leagues and into the pro ranks for places. This is what makes players better, makes them succeed and ultimately find their level. Gifting players a spot where they can be all comfortable because they are guaranteed a job due to where they are born will just lead to poor and unambitious players. I am not arguing for unlimited imports, I am arguing for players with British passports not to be discriminated against. Both on a legal/moral point of view and also because of the benefits it would have to the GB set up. It would install competition among the Brit ranks which is what we need and subsequently will also bring wages to the level they should be which in turn should hopefully encourage our good British players to go abroad to make more money and play in a better league instead of getting all comfortable here and having no desire to improve themselves. This will make the GB team better! Teams will always have an incentive to develop juniors because it is beneficial to them. It will always be in their interests to have good local players who are value for money
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Post by heggig on Jun 2, 2013 18:16:04 GMT
It's not short-termism. Players simply training and playing with guys at a higher level isn't going to improve the situation here. If that is the case then who cares whether you have even played hockey before, can even skate etc. Stick me out there! Going by your theory I will be EIHL ready after a few years Well done, you can be deliberatly facetious. That's probably why I didn't mention that it was the sole way to get a player up to a decent standard. And how is the junior developement going to be brought up to standard if teams have no reason to develop Brits? Are you suggesting a minimum limit for Brits on the roster that will inevitably be filled by a couple of guys who will never see ice time? That's a complete straw man arguement! Are you suggesting that an import cap which includes naturalised Brits is illegal? And that bringing more in will improve the chances of British born and trained players? That doesn't mean anything! Teams will always train local players... just because.
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Post by davidgee on Jun 2, 2013 19:45:58 GMT
It's not short-termism. Players simply training and playing with guys at a higher level isn't going to improve the situation here. If that is the case then who cares whether you have even played hockey before, can even skate etc. Stick me out there! Going by your theory I will be EIHL ready after a few years Well done, you can be deliberatly facetious. That's probably why I didn't mention that it was the sole way to get a player up to a decent standard. And how is the junior developement going to be brought up to standard if teams have no reason to develop Brits? Are you suggesting a minimum limit for Brits on the roster that will inevitably be filled by a couple of guys who will never see ice time? That's a complete straw man arguement! Are you suggesting that an import cap which includes naturalised Brits is illegal? And that bringing more in will improve the chances of British born and trained players? That doesn't mean anything! Teams will always train local players... just because. A players most critical stage in development is around the start of puberty until the age of 17/18. That is where they develop the skills, the skating, shooting etc. From then on its about adjusting to the pro game. You will not be a good player if essentially you have poor hockey skills no matter how much training and games you play...not everyone is cut out to play in the EIHL. I am suggesting for a start, putting the import limit at say 10 but changing the definition of a British player to include people with British passports. There is always a reason to develop local brits, I listed some of them on my last post. I have posted on this thread earlier that every single league in the world treats players with the relevant passport (dual-nats) the same as home-grown players. We are the only league in the world not to. So with that said why does anywhere else develop players? Lets look at Sweden for example, the world champions and number 1 ranked team in the world. The top Swedish leagues for a while now has had a max of 2-non EU players, unlimited EU's and also having classed players with dual-nationality as Swedes e.g Adam Hobson. For next season they have changed the rule so now their is no limit at all on anything, non-EU players included. As has always been the case for a while now any team in Sweden could go out and sign a team full of Europeans with a couple of dual-nats and a couple of north Americans but they haven't. Can you please tell me why? You seem to be suggesting that in this situation due to no reason to develop local players they wouldn't? On your other point, barriers preventing the employment and work of British people is against the law. Bringing in more dual-nats would create a more competitive atmosphere for Brits where just like in every other league they have to compete for their spots. It would in turn reduce the wage demands of the higher brits and hopefully encourage them to go abroad where they can earn more money and play in a better, more high profile league. The GB team will be vastly improved with a mix of good dual-nats and high standard British born players hopefully playing in better leagues abroad. We need to create a system where by young Brits come into the league at an attractive price for other clubs, play here for a few years until they are 23/24 and then go abroad in search of better pay but most importantly improving themselves and playing in better leagues. The current system prevents this from happening.
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Post by heggig on Jun 2, 2013 21:29:02 GMT
A players most critical stage in development is around the start of puberty until the age of 17/18. That is where they develop the skills, the skating, shooting etc. From then on its about adjusting to the pro game. You will not be a good player if essentially you have poor hockey skills no matter how much training and games you play...not everyone is cut out to play in the EIHL. I agree with most of that as it really goes without saying but what I'm trying to get at is that from the point that the player is introduced in to profesional games it is best to be playing with a higher standard of player (ie. the imports) so that they continue developing at a good rate. It is essentially the debate that appears here every so often about our Brits improving further when they share a line with imports rather than on a full Brit line. What I am trying to say is that if imports are more common then the Brits will not be included in match night squads so will not benefit from the knowledge of the better players and will therefor not fullfil their potential. Great players at 17 will go on to be good players at 25 instead of great players. You didn't really list any reason to be fair. Is it really value for money to pay for junior development when they can just pick up some guy just out of a US college who will play for a lowish wage for a couple of years adventure in Europe? I'm not clued up on other leagues in the world but I'd ask if they have always had the same limits that they do now or has it changed now that they have very good junior developments and therefor an ample supply of home born players with a satisfactory skill level that don't come with baggage (imports needing time to settle, learn the language etc.)? If it was illegal why are there so many limits already in place around the EU? Salary caps, age, sex and foreign based players limits. Until it is brought up in court we don't really know but studies suggest that it is all perfectly legal under the regulatory autonomy and freedom of association enjoyed by sports federations throughout Europe. Dual-nationals in the national team is a different debate entirely. I don't understand where these Brits that will go to great foreign leagues are going to come from when the clubs wont bother to develope them. Making it easier for clubs to exclude Brits does nothing but put junior development further down the pecking order in terms of where funds will be directed. Why would a club spend money on all the related expenses to develope a bunch of Brits, many of whom will not make it, for 15 years when they can take the easier, cheaper route of picking up a cheap and ready player from abroad?
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