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Post by harlan on Jun 1, 2013 14:31:57 GMT
They did that last season as well and then had to re-arrange the games that were included on the season tickets, and fans were left confused as to what games were included on season tickets and which ones weren't, and teams also had to re-adjust their recruitment strategies when the import numbers went up.
I see the Flyers as being cautious until this meeting and then they can move forward with their strategy. Teams were bitten by the league changing the goal posts last summer and if they want to go ahead with potentially being bitten again this summer then that is up to them.
Jack Wishart and Tom Muir have been around this game for a long time to just trust what they are being told in private discussions with the league and I don't blame them with this set up.
Get anything in writing from the bunch of cowboys that run this league rather than take them at their word
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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 1, 2013 15:50:54 GMT
They did that last season as well and then had to re-arrange the games that were included on the season tickets, and fans were left confused as to what games were included on season tickets and which ones weren't, and teams also had to re-adjust their recruitment strategies when the import numbers went up. I see the Flyers as being cautious until this meeting and then they can move forward with their strategy. Teams were bitten by the league changing the goal posts last summer and if they want to go ahead with potentially being bitten again this summer then that is up to them. Jack Wishart and Tom Muir have been around this game for a long time to just trust what they are being told in private discussions with the league and I don't blame them with this set up. Get anything in writing from the bunch of cowboys that run this league rather than take them at their word Bizarre post Harlan, as usual in ignorance. Fife as all teams are at the same meetings and make the decisions they need to make. If folk were to believe your ignorant ramblings then why on earth would Fife be involved With the 'cowboys' in the first place. Folks, please learn this guy hasn't a scooby!! |
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Post by harlan on Jun 1, 2013 16:28:55 GMT
And once more the fantasy ramblings of a pretend weegie captain come to the fore when he has nothing sensible or constructive to add to anything.
Its no wonder right thinking knowledgeable fans here know that you are a complete joke that knows nothing about our sport.
Where is the ignorance.
How many teams fans were unsure of which games were included in their season tickets after the meeting last June when they had bought tickets that they thought would be for 27 games and then had to have the games on season tickets reduced.
How were all teams not bitten by the league changing their rules last June? Did they not have to re-adjust their signing strategies after last Junes meeting. Your current coach admitted he never saw the increase to 11 imports coming last summer thats why he spent a good deal of Steelers budget on recruiting Brits last summer.
Your idiocy really is astounding but yet you keep coming on here to continually prove how much of an idiot you are. Keep that kind of stuff for you own forum please, we are much more intelligent and better informed on here and don't need this forum brought down to your inane drivel level
You are only upset because you are one of the cowboys that has no foresight in to the future of this game and how to take it forward.
I bet your club won't be putting forward a motion for the import level to put down to 9 or even back to 10 as it should have been last summer at this meeting
You will more than likely be advocating for an increase in import numbers and for dual nationals in the game and to go down the road as the Ayr "No Scots Allowed" Eagles went and we all saw how short term that thinking went.
Now that kind of thinking for the game really is ignorant
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Post by davidgee on Jun 1, 2013 20:09:18 GMT
And once more the fantasy ramblings of a pretend weegie captain come to the fore when he has nothing sensible or constructive to add to anything. Its no wonder right thinking knowledgeable fans here know that you are a complete joke that knows nothing about our sport. Where is the ignorance. How many teams fans were unsure of which games were included in their season tickets after the meeting last June when they had bought tickets that they thought would be for 27 games and then had to have the games on season tickets reduced. How were all teams not bitten by the league changing their rules last June? Did they not have to re-adjust their signing strategies after last Junes meeting. Your current coach admitted he never saw the increase to 11 imports coming last summer thats why he spent a good deal of Steelers budget on recruiting Brits last summer. Your idiocy really is astounding but yet you keep coming on here to continually prove how much of an idiot you are. Keep that kind of stuff for you own forum please, we are much more intelligent and better informed on here and don't need this forum brought down to your inane drivel level You are only upset because you are one of the cowboys that has no foresight in to the future of this game and how to take it forward. I bet your club won't be putting forward a motion for the import level to put down to 9 or even back to 10 as it should have been last summer at this meeting You will more than likely be advocating for an increase in import numbers and for dual nationals in the game and to go down the road as the Ayr "No Scots Allowed" Eagles went and we all saw how short term that thinking went. Now that kind of thinking for the game really is ignorant There are 9 people who run the league, Tom Muir is one of them. He is as culpable as any of the other owners! You say the league is run by a 'bunch of cowboys' well he is one of them. Every team gets one vote and that includes Fife. As for your point saying thinking about more dual-nats is ignorant, that sort of shows how out of touch/ignorant you are and probably a lot of fans here with the game. Doesn't take more than a second to figure out that the rule we have in the UK with the definition of Brit is so outdated and needs to be changed to encompass anyone with a British passport in order to bring us in line with the rest of the world of ice hockey. People often say our league isn't respected in Europe, one of the main reasons that is the case is because we are the only place to have a rule which counts British people (british passports) as imports. Every league in Europe without exception, KHL/DEL/NLA/Eliteserien/SM-Liga/Serie A/Ligue Magnus etc does not have limits on the amount of Dual-Nats (relevant passport) People always look to Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Russia etc. and say we should try our best to replicate them and aspire to be like them. Well the dual-nat rule is one thing that they and all the successful nations have in common. We should learn from that |
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Post by harlan on Jun 1, 2013 21:29:15 GMT
We have learnt from that, thats why we don't have dual nationals.
We tried it before and it ruined the game in this country with the evolution of the Superleague, we certainly don't need to go down that shortsighted road again.
Yes Tom Muir and the Flyers have a vote in running the league but I can guarantee you it wouldn't have been used in support of increasing the number of imports last summer and he certainly can never be accused of bankrupting clubs so that they never existed or run up debts to pheonix a club.
Those who have done and have no vision to devlop British talent at the highest level are the cowboys.
Yes we should try to replicate leagues like Sweden, Finland. switzerland and Russia.
Last season there were 246 Swedes playing in their top league out of 320 total players, thats 76% home grown
Finland had 354 Finns out of 412 total players, 85% home grown
Switzerland 288 Swiss out of 374 total, 77% home grown
Russia 514 Russian out of 777 total for 66% home grown
UK 97 Brits out of a total of 211 players in our league last season for 45% home grown.
We definately need to get our home grown percentage up to those leagues you mentioned
In the recent Pool A World Champioships there were 4 dual nationals used by those countries you named out of a total of 99 players, hardly a glowing endorsement for the use of dual nationals
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Post by davidgee on Jun 1, 2013 22:27:48 GMT
We have learnt from that, thats why we don't have dual nationals. We tried it before and it ruined the game in this country with the evolution of the Superleague, we certainly don't need to go down that shortsighted road again. Yes Tom Muir and the Flyers have a vote in running the league but I can guarantee you it wouldn't have been used in support of increasing the number of imports last summer and he certainly can never be accused of bankrupting clubs so that they never existed or run up debts to pheonix a club. Those who have done and have no vision to devlop British talent at the highest level are the cowboys. Yes we should try to replicate leagues like Sweden, Finland. switzerland and Russia. Last season there were 246 Swedes playing in their top league out of 320 total players, thats 76% home grown Finland had 354 Finns out of 412 total players, 85% home grown Switzerland 288 Swiss out of 374 total, 77% home grown Russia 514 Russian out of 777 total for 66% home grown UK 97 Brits out of a total of 211 players in our league last season for 45% home grown. We definately need to get our home grown percentage up to those leagues you mentioned In the recent Pool A World Champioships there were 4 dual nationals used by those countries you named out of a total of 99 players, hardly a glowing endorsement for the use of dual nationals What did we learn? I'm not arguing here for unlimited imports, I'm arguing for making the EIHL just like every other league in the world by recognising people with British passports as British people. The Superleague didn't go bust because it had unlimited imports, it went bust because of the amount of money, teams were spending. If that league had no imports in it and just British players and the teams were spending the same amounts of money the end result would have been exactly the same. Long gone are the days of having owners such as Phillip Anschutz or Billy Barr who didn't care how much money they lost. What we now have is a group of owners who don't have anywhere near as deep pockets and want to make a profit or at least break even. Do you really think if we did the right thing in making players with British passport count as British players that these teams would suddenly just massively up their budget and these owners would suddenly be prepared to loose hundreds of thousands of pounds? the answer is most definitely not! My question to you and I'm not talking about national teams here but why does every other league in the world without exception not count dual-nationals with the relevant passport the same as imports? What is the reason? Interesting that you mention you think that the owners who are interested in upping the import limit as Cowboys. The Swedish Ice Hockey association has just implemented a new rule starting next season which will see the teams in Sweden being able to sign unlimited imports. The is same association responsible for making Sweden one of the best hockey nations and making them world champions this season. Heavens forbid we learn anything from those cowboys |
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Post by neebur on Jun 1, 2013 22:39:30 GMT
When it comes to hockey I'll listen to Harlan ahead of of the wind-up merchant'' James T Kirk''
Ronnie - isn't it time you quit the sarcasm and knowing digs? Been at it for years now... pretty sad for a grown-up man, isn't it?
If there was an award for ''hinger on of the year'' you'd win it hands down every year...
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Post by harlan on Jun 1, 2013 23:26:33 GMT
We have learnt from that, thats why we don't have dual nationals. We tried it before and it ruined the game in this country with the evolution of the Superleague, we certainly don't need to go down that shortsighted road again. Yes Tom Muir and the Flyers have a vote in running the league but I can guarantee you it wouldn't have been used in support of increasing the number of imports last summer and he certainly can never be accused of bankrupting clubs so that they never existed or run up debts to pheonix a club. Those who have done and have no vision to devlop British talent at the highest level are the cowboys. Yes we should try to replicate leagues like Sweden, Finland. switzerland and Russia. Last season there were 246 Swedes playing in their top league out of 320 total players, thats 76% home grown Finland had 354 Finns out of 412 total players, 85% home grown Switzerland 288 Swiss out of 374 total, 77% home grown Russia 514 Russian out of 777 total for 66% home grown UK 97 Brits out of a total of 211 players in our league last season for 45% home grown. We definately need to get our home grown percentage up to those leagues you mentioned In the recent Pool A World Champioships there were 4 dual nationals used by those countries you named out of a total of 99 players, hardly a glowing endorsement for the use of dual nationals What did we learn? I'm not arguing here for unlimited imports, I'm arguing for making the EIHL just like every other league in the world by recognising people with British passports as British people. The Superleague didn't go bust because it had unlimited imports, it went bust because of the amount of money, teams were spending. If that league had no imports in it and just British players and the teams were spending the same amounts of money the end result would have been exactly the same. Long gone are the days of having owners such as Phillip Anschutz or Billy Barr who didn't care how much money they lost. What we now have is a group of owners who don't have anywhere near as deep pockets and want to make a profit or at least break even. Do you really think if we did the right thing in making players with British passport count as British players that these teams would suddenly just massively up their budget and these owners would suddenly be prepared to loose hundreds of thousands of pounds? the answer is most definitely not! My question to you and I'm not talking about national teams here but why does every other league in the world without exception not count dual-nationals with the relevant passport the same as imports? What is the reason? Interesting that you mention you think that the owners who are interested in upping the import limit as Cowboys. The Swedish Ice Hockey association has just implemented a new rule starting next season which will see the teams in Sweden being able to sign unlimited imports. The is same association responsible for making Sweden one of the best hockey nations and making them world champions this season. Heavens forbid we learn anything from those cowboys If you have an EU passport you have been allowed to play in the Swedish league for ages now. All they are doing now is extending that to North American players and I don't see them having a sudden increase in foreign players for this coming season, they haven't in the past so there is no reason for a sudden influx of North Americans to the Swedish game. What did we learn from having dual nationals? We learnt that they increased the wage demands of teams, we learnt that the majority of them had no great impact on the game here, we learnt that dual nationals prevented home grown players from playing the game at the highest level in this country and we do not want to go down that road again What other countries call imports or not call imports is up to them but we here in Britain say players who have not learned their hockey in this country are classed as imports irrespective of their passports and that IMO is the right approach for us I am not arguing for no imports, we should be down to 9 imports per team for this coming season- there is absolutely no reason for it not to be at 9 and that I believe is the right number for the next couple of seasons before looking at reducing it again |
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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 1, 2013 23:35:19 GMT
Well said davidgee, neebur you need therapy ;-)
Anyway, Harlan disnae have any thoughts of his own, he gets them from his sources - and if we are talking cowboys.........
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Post by davidgee on Jun 2, 2013 0:47:01 GMT
What did we learn? I'm not arguing here for unlimited imports, I'm arguing for making the EIHL just like every other league in the world by recognising people with British passports as British people. The Superleague didn't go bust because it had unlimited imports, it went bust because of the amount of money, teams were spending. If that league had no imports in it and just British players and the teams were spending the same amounts of money the end result would have been exactly the same. Long gone are the days of having owners such as Phillip Anschutz or Billy Barr who didn't care how much money they lost. What we now have is a group of owners who don't have anywhere near as deep pockets and want to make a profit or at least break even. Do you really think if we did the right thing in making players with British passport count as British players that these teams would suddenly just massively up their budget and these owners would suddenly be prepared to loose hundreds of thousands of pounds? the answer is most definitely not! My question to you and I'm not talking about national teams here but why does every other league in the world without exception not count dual-nationals with the relevant passport the same as imports? What is the reason? Interesting that you mention you think that the owners who are interested in upping the import limit as Cowboys. The Swedish Ice Hockey association has just implemented a new rule starting next season which will see the teams in Sweden being able to sign unlimited imports. The is same association responsible for making Sweden one of the best hockey nations and making them world champions this season. Heavens forbid we learn anything from those cowboys If you have an EU passport you have been allowed to play in the Swedish league for ages now. All they are doing now is extending that to North American players and I don't see them having a sudden increase in foreign players for this coming season, they haven't in the past so there is no reason for a sudden influx of North Americans to the Swedish game. What did we learn from having dual nationals? We learnt that they increased the wage demands of teams, we learnt that the majority of them had no great impact on the game here, we learnt that dual nationals prevented home grown players from playing the game at the highest level in this country and we do not want to go down that road again What other countries call imports or not call imports is up to them but we here in Britain say players who have not learned their hockey in this country are classed as imports irrespective of their passports and that IMO is the right approach for us I am not arguing for no imports, we should be down to 9 imports per team for this coming season- there is absolutely no reason for it not to be at 9 and that I believe is the right number for the next couple of seasons before looking at reducing it again Dual-Nationals cannot raise the wage demands of teams! Teams have a budget, why would they raise it to accommodate it so they can have a particular player. Its like saying Casey Haines wants a £100,000 increase next season so now Fife have to raise the budget by £100,000. There are a large amount of players out there who could get a British passport, the supply of Brits would be vastly increased. Dual-nationals should not prevent home-grown players from playing at the highest level in this country. In fact you even demonstrated this by quoting the % of homegrown players playing in the leagues in Russia, Finland and Switzerland! If a team has the option of signing 2 players of identical ability for the same price but one is from the UK and one is a dual-nat from Canada then obviously the team would sign the British player due to saving on flights+ITC and possibly accommodation. Onto your next point and why should we be down to 9 imports?! Where are 20 extra Brits suddenly going to come from? Teams are currently really struggling to get enough brits to make up a roster with the ability to sign 11 imports! Reduce it to 9 and all that will happen is that the wages for Brits will be even more ridiculously inflated then they already are with the top teams signing not only all the GB players that they currently have but also the players on the GB fringe. Sticking poor British players on the ice isn't going to suddenly make them better, that isn't how it works. The key to improving home-grown British players is dramatically improving the rubbish junior development systems we have in the UK, Kirkcaldy/Fife included. The only way we could go down to 9 imports is if we changed the definition of what a British player is which would be the correct decision thus increasing the supply of British players and bringing down British players wages to the actual level they are worth. To end off you say that not including British passport holders as British players is the right approach. As much as I disagree that is your entitled opinion but just don't criticise the leagues reputation when you are in favour of a rule that is a main reason why other European hockey nations laugh at us |
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Post by harlan on Jun 2, 2013 9:02:30 GMT
Dual nationals would immediately and drastically increase the budgets of teams as they would become in as much of a demand as the high end Brit players.
The vast supply of Brits wouldn't be increased because dual nationals aren't British and they never should be classed as British. Where you grew up and learn your hockey should always determine whether you are an import in this country, you should not have a right to come and play here just because you have a passport that says you should.
I don't understand what your point is with my stats for the leagues you mentioned. The percentage of non homegrown players playing in those leagues aren't dual nationals, they are classed as imports.
The Swedish league had 13 dual nationals out of 320 players for the 12 teams last season
The Finnish league had 18 dual nationals out of 412 players for the 14 teams
The Swiss league had 58 dual nationals out of 374 players for the 12 teams
In Russia it was 71 dual nationals out of 777 players for the 26 teams
So out of 1,883 players from 64 teams only 160 were dual nationals, thats less than 9% or 2.5 dual nationals per team.
Hardly making the huge impact on the top leagues in Europe you are suggesting.
The British players are out there, teams just have to give them the opportunity to play at Elite level.
Your argument that reducing imports to 9 will increase wage demands of Brits is ridiculous as there will be a greater pool of British players to choose from thereby automatically reducing the wage demands of the Brits, its simple supply and demand-the more you have of something the less it costs.
This then gives you more of your budget to spend on better quality imports as you need to spend less on them because you have less of them in your team, this in turn increases the quality of the hockey because you are watching better quality players and those better quality imports raise the playing standard of the Brits who then become better players and increase the quality of the hockey and increases the pool of Brits and round and round it keeps going.
You bring dual nationals in to this country you spend your budget on them rather than spending it on British guys and you never have local trained guys wanting to play for their local team.
Sticking Brits on the ice with good quality imports does work, not immediately, but over a season or two it most definitely works.
I couldn't give a toss whether other European leagues laugh at us or not. This is a British hockey league and British trained players should have the opportunity to get to play in it. Just now not enough of them are
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Post by jamestkirk on Jun 2, 2013 10:30:31 GMT
So many holes in your argument harlan it's unbelievable.
You may know more about Fife than I do but clearly you know nothing about the UK hockey scene overall.
Thankfully davidgee is more on the puck :-)
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Post by davidgee on Jun 2, 2013 10:32:31 GMT
Dual nationals would immediately and drastically increase the budgets of teams as they would become in as much of a demand as the high end Brit players. The vast supply of Brits wouldn't be increased because dual nationals aren't British and they never should be classed as British. Where you grew up and learn your hockey should always determine whether you are an import in this country, you should not have a right to come and play here just because you have a passport that says you should. I don't understand what your point is with my stats for the leagues you mentioned. The percentage of non homegrown players playing in those leagues aren't dual nationals, they are classed as imports. The Swedish league had 13 dual nationals out of 320 players for the 12 teams last season The Finnish league had 18 dual nationals out of 412 players for the 14 teams The Swiss league had 58 dual nationals out of 374 players for the 12 teams In Russia it was 71 dual nationals out of 777 players for the 26 teams So out of 1,883 players from 64 teams only 160 were dual nationals, thats less than 9% or 2.5 dual nationals per team. Hardly making the huge impact on the top leagues in Europe you are suggesting. The British players are out there, teams just have to give them the opportunity to play at Elite level. Your argument that reducing imports to 9 will increase wage demands of Brits is ridiculous as there will be a greater pool of British players to choose from thereby automatically reducing the wage demands of the Brits, its simple supply and demand-the more you have of something the less it costs. This then gives you more of your budget to spend on better quality imports as you need to spend less on them because you have less of them in your team, this in turn increases the quality of the hockey because you are watching better quality players and those better quality imports raise the playing standard of the Brits who then become better players and increase the quality of the hockey and increases the pool of Brits and round and round it keeps going. You bring dual nationals in to this country you spend your budget on them rather than spending it on British guys and you never have local trained guys wanting to play for their local team. Sticking Brits on the ice with good quality imports does work, not immediately, but over a season or two it most definitely works. I couldn't give a toss whether other European leagues laugh at us or not. This is a British hockey league and British trained players should have the opportunity to get to play in it. Just now not enough of them are There is so much wrong with this post I don't really know where to start but I'll give it a go. Dual-Nationals do not increase teams budgets!!! If Dundee were going to have a budget of £300,000 next season, they would not suddenly increase it or raise it to £500,000 just because people with British passports count as British players. There are players in the NCAA,CIS, OHL etc. who have British passports and are cheap. Say there are currently 60 Brits capable of playing in the EIHL and you increase that number to 250 then the prices of current Brits comes down. It's simply economics, if there is the same demand but supply is massively bigger then prices go down. It will give teams a much bigger choice and they won't be held to ransom by some british players who know they can demand inflated wages because they have no competition. I'm not quite sure what you thought I was making out with the quotes of the leagues but I was showing and you have done it again how you are contradicting yourself. Those leagues are allowed to have players with the relevant passports count the same as homegrown players yet as you say 'they don't have a massive impact' but you said that 'dual-nats would prevent home-gorwn players playing at the highest level in this country'! So my question is why does having this rule have such a little impact on the leagues quoted? Why would we not be the same? If you think the British Players are out there, name them? Please list them? They will never come up they like should from the EPL due to being part-time and location so they are almost out the question. Once again your outdated theory of British players improving by just sticking them out there despite their talent and potential is wrong, It has never worked and never will work. The Key as displayed in every single successful hockey nation is having great junior development systems, something we do not have in this country. We hype up our development systems such as the Kirkcaldy/Fife one which is in actual fact pretty rubbish. Dropping the import limit just raises the price of Brits. If you increase the demand and not the supply then price rises. Your ideology of people with British passports not counting/never should be able to count the same as British people is a discriminatory, dinosaur approach. You were unable to answer my question of why no other league in the world counts the relevant passport holders as imports because you quite clearly don't have an answer. Todd Dutiaume has lived in this country for 16/17 years. He married a local girl. He loves Fife and considers it his home. He has a British passport but still you think it is right to discriminate against him?? This backward, dinosaur theory is even more outdated than 'the fife way' and in fact I don't know how they get away with it as it is actually against British law |
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Post by clanfandoug on Jun 2, 2013 11:49:10 GMT
If some fans want to see less imports or dual nationals I am sure there is a Fife team in the SNL. As I know a few Fife fans are happy that Flyers took the jump into the EIHL, and let's not forget Fife knew the import limits before entry so forget about less imports IMO.
I am for unlimited imports but a minimum Brits per roster that limit can be set by EIHL, as its wrong that a average Brit can earn more than a better import just because he was born here. And having the Dual Nationals would help us progress back up a division in World Championships, lets not forget the recent World Championship opponents all had Dual Nationals except our GB team that got relegated. If memory serves me correct Italy had 9 dual nationals.
I pay good money to watch the best hockey in the UK, if I just wanted to watch locals I could go watch Edinburgh Capitals SNL team or Paisley Pirates. I am from West Lothian and not a weegie as few Fife fans think all Clan fans are from Glasgow which they are not.
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Post by clanfandoug on Jun 2, 2013 11:50:30 GMT
I should add Dual Nationals should no way count as import in EIHL and be count as Brit also.
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