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Post by davidgee on Jun 7, 2013 13:04:00 GMT
Did you actually read my post? In your original post you said 'Since Ice Hockey does not have transfer fees, the return for an owner on their investment is zero' and I replied by saying 'An EIHL owner makes an investment on every player they sign, import or Brit and all they are interested in is getting the best product on the ice for the money available, to sell the most tickets'. You have now seemingly followed that by telling me I'm wrong despite agreeing with what I said and contradicting what you originally argued by saying - 'Your point about investment in every player who is signed is only half true. If signing a player, or set of players, helps the club make a profit or break even then it's not a zero return'- In most cases what I said about the ownership of junior teams is correct. Sure clubs sometimes let the youth clubs use their name or logo but they don't actually own them or have any official involvement. For example Fife doesn't own the Kirkcaldy junior clubs and Nottingham doesn't own anyone bar themselves. That whole Sheffield structure you listed previously is run separately. On your points about Brits being guaranteed places, again have you not read my post? Seems you just missed out answering any of my questions about the French system because you don't have an answer and also because it completely contradicts your theory. Even so I am not arguing for unlimited imports at this point, I am arguing for the definition of British player to be changed. Why would the EIHL have 'barely any Brits in it' - in France any team could sign a team and not have one domestic french player in it yet there are 209 French players in the league! Why is that? Your point about relating more to a player like Aaron Nell is irrelevant to this debate as well, what has that got to do with the definition of Brits and development? Are you saying we should base our system on the ability to 'relate to players' The things about other countries I didn't answer because the answer would be ridiculously long, those kind of things are hard to sum up in typing. But put it this way, if you compare the UK to Canada, I have a friend in Canada and she trains with her junior team more often than my EPL senior team does! It's stuff like that which you have to go into forensic detail to examine why and what the possible solutions are. You could debate these things forever. It seems only EIHL teams don't run their own junior setups, as we at Phoenix do, Bison do, Guildford do, Bracknell do and Swindon do. Not sure about MKL, Peterborough or Slough. Sheffield is independently run, though Payette has massive involvement and often coaches the juniors personally. But maybe that's just yet another thing wrong with how EIHL is run. But then again, why do EIHL teams need junior teams when they can let EPL/ENL teams do it for them then just offer the products of their academies more money to play for them? No. But being able to relate to players would gets kids far more interested, which in turn would be good for the future. Because it would be no good. The few spots that currently do go to Brits would instead go to dual-nationals. I do not know why countries like France manage to get the balance right, but over here, all it would mean is that clubs that keep their imports would be able to hire more imports because their previous ones are no longer imports because they have now acquired a British passport. Yes of course that is why you didn't answer the question? I wasn't asking about Canada and I wouldn't try and compare us with them. I was asking first individually about Sweden, then France and still no answer, the fact is I could ask it for every single league in the world because bar the EIHL, they all have the same rule. Just answer the simple question of why every single pro league in the world without exception does not counts dual-nationals as imports? Spudeeland, you really do need to actually check you points over and stop leaving such massive gaps in your argument. It took me less than 5 minutes to find out that your own club Manchester doesn't own the junior development system, Guildford doesn't own theirs and neither does Bracknell, the 3 clubs you originally used as examples. These clubs and a lot in the EIHL run in association with the junior clubs but don't fund or own them. Hence my original point way back about whatever the import limit in the EIHL not affecting the junior development systems due to them not being owned/funded by the teams owners is completely correct. Even though the point about relating to players is irrelevant to this debate, even so I don't completely agree with that. Some kids may have no clue who is British and who is foreign. Some kids may look at Robert Schnabel for example in Manchester and have him as a role model because he made it to the NHL
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spudeeelad
Junior
Posts: 949
EIHL Team: Manchester Storm
NHL Team: Tampa Bay Lightning
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Post by spudeeelad on Jun 7, 2013 14:00:42 GMT
The things about other countries I didn't answer because the answer would be ridiculously long, those kind of things are hard to sum up in typing. But put it this way, if you compare the UK to Canada, I have a friend in Canada and she trains with her junior team more often than my EPL senior team does! It's stuff like that which you have to go into forensic detail to examine why and what the possible solutions are. You could debate these things forever. It seems only EIHL teams don't run their own junior setups, as we at Phoenix do, Bison do, Guildford do, Bracknell do and Swindon do. Not sure about MKL, Peterborough or Slough. Sheffield is independently run, though Payette has massive involvement and often coaches the juniors personally. But maybe that's just yet another thing wrong with how EIHL is run. But then again, why do EIHL teams need junior teams when they can let EPL/ENL teams do it for them then just offer the products of their academies more money to play for them? No. But being able to relate to players would gets kids far more interested, which in turn would be good for the future. Because it would be no good. The few spots that currently do go to Brits would instead go to dual-nationals. I do not know why countries like France manage to get the balance right, but over here, all it would mean is that clubs that keep their imports would be able to hire more imports because their previous ones are no longer imports because they have now acquired a British passport. Yes of course that is why you didn't answer the question? I wasn't asking about Canada and I wouldn't try and compare us with them. I was asking first individually about Sweden, then France and still no answer, the fact is I could ask it for every single league in the world because bar the EIHL, they all have the same rule. Just answer the simple question of why every single pro league in the world without exception does not counts dual-nationals as imports? Spudeeland, you really do need to actually check you points over and stop leaving such massive gaps in your argument. It took me less than 5 minutes to find out that your own club Manchester doesn't own the junior development system, Guildford doesn't own theirs and neither does Bracknell, the 3 clubs you originally used as examples. These clubs and a lot in the EIHL run in association with the junior clubs but don't fund or own them. Hence my original point way back about whatever the import limit in the EIHL not affecting the junior development systems due to them not being owned/funded by the teams owners is completely correct. Even though the point about relating to players is irrelevant to this debate, even so I don't completely agree with that. Some kids may have no clue who is British and who is foreign. Some kids may look at Robert Schnabel for example in Manchester and have him as a role model because he made it to the NHL Not sure where you work this out from. Phoenix juniors are run by the Manchester Phoenix Community Sports Foundation and are subsidised by the same owner as the senior team are - Neil Morris. Neil setup the MPCSF, but it's actually a charity. Hence the charity owns it, not Neil. Whatever your source was is wrong because this is from the guy himself. EDIT:- Well I can't speak on behalf of other nations and don't claim to have knowledge of their systems. I believe the current system is for the best. Though admittedly it is weird that dual nationals can play for our senior GB team but still be classed as an import in league terms.
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spudeeelad
Junior
Posts: 949
EIHL Team: Manchester Storm
NHL Team: Tampa Bay Lightning
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Post by spudeeelad on Jun 7, 2013 14:04:32 GMT
Even though the point about relating to players is irrelevant to this debate, even so I don't completely agree with that. Some kids may have no clue who is British and who is foreign. Some kids may look at Robert Schnabel for example in Manchester and have him as a role model because he made it to the NHL Sorry I missed this point. Yes, 100% agree. My point being though, is that if Schnabel leaves (which he will at some point, maybe very soon if he decides not to honour the 2nd year of his contract), then losing their hero can seriously de-moralise a kid. Whereas if they idolised someone like Luke Boothroyd who you know is pretty much as Phoenix as any other player, that their hero is going to be their for a good while yet, at least long enough for the kid to get old enough to realise that it really doesn't matter if their hero leaves.
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Post by davidgee on Jun 7, 2013 14:25:02 GMT
Yes of course that is why you didn't answer the question? I wasn't asking about Canada and I wouldn't try and compare us with them. I was asking first individually about Sweden, then France and still no answer, the fact is I could ask it for every single league in the world because bar the EIHL, they all have the same rule. Just answer the simple question of why every single pro league in the world without exception does not counts dual-nationals as imports? Spudeeland, you really do need to actually check you points over and stop leaving such massive gaps in your argument. It took me less than 5 minutes to find out that your own club Manchester doesn't own the junior development system, Guildford doesn't own theirs and neither does Bracknell, the 3 clubs you originally used as examples. These clubs and a lot in the EIHL run in association with the junior clubs but don't fund or own them. Hence my original point way back about whatever the import limit in the EIHL not affecting the junior development systems due to them not being owned/funded by the teams owners is completely correct. Even though the point about relating to players is irrelevant to this debate, even so I don't completely agree with that. Some kids may have no clue who is British and who is foreign. Some kids may look at Robert Schnabel for example in Manchester and have him as a role model because he made it to the NHL Not sure where you work this out from. Phoenix juniors are run by the Manchester Phoenix Community Sports Foundation and are subsidised by the same owner as the senior team are - Neil Morris. Neil setup the MPCSF, but it's actually a charity. Hence the charity owns it, not Neil. Whatever your source was is wrong because this is from the guy himself. EDIT:- Well I can't speak on behalf of other nations and don't claim to have knowledge of their systems. I believe the current system is for the best. Though admittedly it is weird that dual nationals can play for our senior GB team but still be classed as an import in league terms. From your very own website on the junior section 'The club operates independently of, but in association with, the senior Manchester Phoenix club'
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spudeeelad
Junior
Posts: 949
EIHL Team: Manchester Storm
NHL Team: Tampa Bay Lightning
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Post by spudeeelad on Jun 7, 2013 14:43:31 GMT
Not sure where you work this out from. Phoenix juniors are run by the Manchester Phoenix Community Sports Foundation and are subsidised by the same owner as the senior team are - Neil Morris. Neil setup the MPCSF, but it's actually a charity. Hence the charity owns it, not Neil. Whatever your source was is wrong because this is from the guy himself. EDIT:- Well I can't speak on behalf of other nations and don't claim to have knowledge of their systems. I believe the current system is for the best. Though admittedly it is weird that dual nationals can play for our senior GB team but still be classed as an import in league terms. From your very own website on the junior section 'The club operates independently of, but in association with, the senior Manchester Phoenix club' Which is exactly what I've just said. Operates independently via the MPCSF. They are separate so that if one goes under for some reason, the other is not dragged down with it. This is just common sense in the world of business. EDIT:- Except in the case of banking, which i'm sure we all know about LOL.
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Post by grommit on Jun 8, 2013 7:11:41 GMT
Is this the spud and dave column.....lol.Agree with previous post cant the debate be moved elsewhere so we can see what Fife Free Press actually does what it says on the tin ...and let the guys discuss under their own topic..
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spudeeelad
Junior
Posts: 949
EIHL Team: Manchester Storm
NHL Team: Tampa Bay Lightning
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Post by spudeeelad on Jun 8, 2013 10:14:51 GMT
Is this the spud and dave column.....lol.Agree with previous post cant the debate be moved elsewhere so we can see what Fife Free Press actually does what it says on the tin ...and let the guys discuss under their own topic.. No. Provided my real name is David, it's the Dave and Dave thread lol
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