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Post by tackleberry on Sept 28, 2015 21:29:59 GMT
It was galling to watch Flemington and Rutherford thinking they were some kind of hard nuts on Saturday, no doubt they will be back to being shrinking violets when they come up against some hard hitters from other teams. It looks like Gunny has dug deep and has found a bit of form, it's a pity we don't have another decent brit forward, then we could drop an import forward, on current form this would probably be Foxy ( although this could change quickly as it's early days) and get in a D enforcer
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Mike
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Post by Mike on Sept 29, 2015 5:42:53 GMT
Don't tease me like that! I would love to hear your current thoughts now we are a month into the season... As long as he agrees with your point of view I guess. If he doesn't he'll be accused of being a club insider. We didn't get bullied by Edinburgh. We controlled the game. Certain Edinburgh agitators did their job, which would have happened with or without an enforcer. Put Nickerson into the Flyers team last Sat and the only difference is he gets kicked out for being 3rd man in with Cullen. We weren't going to win on Sunday in that small rink even with Tony Twist in the team. The teams built on speed. Totally agree. Having an enforcer doesn't stop little punks acting like that. Fulton did stuff like that for us and was never interested when a tough guy came calling. None of them would've fought Matt anyway so all he could've done was jumped them and got himself suspended. Take a look at the Blaze Giants highlights and you'll see Valabik jumping Beech, a total non fighter. Much more "bullying" than we've been subjected to this year. Despite Matt being on the other side of the ice. He then declined to go with Matt. How much of a deterrent is he?
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Post by thebear on Sept 29, 2015 6:43:58 GMT
I can see this from both points of view Having an enforcer may stop guys taking cheap shots as often as they are but like most have been saying, if we still had Nicker and he reacted he would probaly end up taking multi game ban. The main cause of this is extremely poor refereeing, If they did their job and made the calls and stepped in quickly enough to stop players jumping and attacking players that arent aware or interested in fighting. If they are both willing to go toe to toe then fine let them but, like on saturday, for a ref to just stand and stare at two players sprawling about the ice whilst one of his linesmen tries to break it up is unacceptable On the flip side, we "should" have a lot less suspensions this season (If the guys play smart and avoid silly hits from behind etc) I'm fairly convinced that our "team toughness" will almost be enough for us this season, thats if everyone sticks up for each other and don't let the usual suspects do all the sticking up (Paquet) otherwise injuries will happen then we will be in trouble. Delahey has proved he won't shy away and Paquet seems to be sticking up for himself and others. Haines has proven in the past he will stick up for himself and others also and Tommy can usually answer the call if asked. They may not be a match for the big enforcers of the league but aslong as they try and don't give them a reason to get a sore face
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Post by happydaysdancer on Sept 29, 2015 6:57:30 GMT
Agreed. What might happen and might not if we had an enforcer is all conjecture. All we can do is see where we are at the end of the season. As it gets to playoff time the cheap shots disappear to a degree as the risk of bans for the showpiece is too large. Like has been said we need a strong pp. Get that and this question goes away a bit provided the refs dontheir job
On another topic, just for our clangers lookers in, good to see our third line rack up the points whilst theirs stutters
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Post by joestoyanovich on Sept 29, 2015 9:19:09 GMT
It was galling to watch Flemington and Rutherford thinking they were some kind of hard nuts on Saturday, no doubt they will be back to being shrinking violets when they come up against some hard hitters from other teams. It looks like Gunny has dug deep and has found a bit of form, it's a pity we don't have another decent brit forward, then we could drop an import forward, on current form this would probably be Foxy ( although this could change quickly as it's early days) and get in a D enforcer Any improvement in Gunny's play is pretty much down to the fact that he's now getting ice time alongside a couple of import forwards. Up till now his ice time has been limited to the third line with all brit line mates or with Danny Stewart who really didn't seem to want to pass to any of his line mates preferring to do it all on his own. This is Gunny's first real chance I feel.
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Post by waterboy on Sept 29, 2015 10:25:01 GMT
With an enforcer for the past 2 seasons we saw very little cheapshots aimed at our team, probably because the biggest bully was on our side and most of the others teams guys simply didn't want to anger him.
First Preseason game this year Keefe throws punches at our captain in the first shift, no comeback from the Flyers (that's after being as quiet as a mouse against us for the past 2 seasons). Lloyd slew foots Haines sending him into the boards, no reaction from our guys. Flemington Rutherford do what they did on Saturday, Gunny fighting off 3 players at one point, were was the team toughness then?
Cardiff on Sunday Hotham and Hendrixx in particular just take liberties all night. Nobody steps up until Pauquet had no choice but do it (he clearly ain't a fighter), this was after one of their smaller guys had shot the puck at our goalie after the whistle.
Like it or not if we had Matt or Salters or Clarkson in our line up pretty much every single one of these doesn't happen that's not based on "oh we can't say if an enforcer would have made a difference" we all know it does as we all watched the difference for the past 2 years.
Teams and in particular the tough agitating players around the league will see what our guys do when they are pushed so far that's simply take it and skate away. I thought it was a mistake leading into the season, as I said earlier nothing has happened to change my mind.
For reference Fitzgerald was up to his usual nonsense in Dundee on Saturday. Faryna fought him Clarkson had a word later on and he was by all accounts quiet the rest of the game. That's the difference it makes having these type of guys in your line up.
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Post by riverrat on Sept 29, 2015 10:32:49 GMT
With an enforcer for the past 2 seasons we saw very little cheapshots aimed at our team, probably because the biggest bully was on our side and most of the others teams guys simply didn't want to anger him. First Preseason game this year Keefe throws punches at our captain in the first shift, no comeback from the Flyers (that's after being as quiet as a mouse against us for the past 2 seasons). Lloyd slew foots Haines sending him into the boards, no reaction from our guys. Flemington Rutherford do what they did on Saturday, Gunny fighting off 3 players at one point, were was the team toughness then? Cardiff on Sunday Hotham and Hendrixx in particular just take liberties all night. Nobody steps up until Pauquet had no choice but do it (he clearly ain't a fighter), this was after one of their smaller guys had shot the puck at our goalie after the whistle. Like it or not if we had Matt or Salters or Clarkson in our line up pretty much every single one of these doesn't happen that's not based on "oh we can't say if an enforcer would have made a difference" we all know it does as we all watched the difference for the past 2 years. Teams and in particular the tough agitating players around the league will see what our guys do when they are pushed so far that's simply take it and skate away. I thought it was a mistake leading into the season, as I said earlier nothing has happened to change my mind. For reference Fitzgerald was up to his usual nonsense in Dundee on Sunday. Faryna fought him Clarkson had a word later on and he was by all accounts quiet the rest of the game. That's the difference it makes having these type of guys in your line up. But it's made no difference to our league position (you could argue it hurt it playing short during suspensions) . Isn't that what it's all about?
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Post by coloradoflyer on Sept 29, 2015 10:47:34 GMT
there will be pros and cons for this but end of the day this is the team we have it's up to the refs to bin peopele who start and it's also up to the guys to look after each other
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Post by riverrat on Sept 29, 2015 11:04:49 GMT
there will be pros and cons for this but end of the day this is the team we have it's up to the refs to bin peopele who start and it's also up to the guys to look after each other Aah well .All us peopele will just shut up then .
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finchy
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Post by finchy on Sept 29, 2015 11:28:58 GMT
I’d have liked more proper toughness in the team for a lot of the reasons already stated by other posters. It’s just a personal preference though and doesn’t mean the coaches decision is wrong.
People are making it too black and white though. Yes, we wouldn’t have guys like Flemington all of a sudden realising he’s a tough guy but when all’s said and done we didn’t lose the game on Saturday.
Are we really going to have this debate every time we DO lose a game against a team with tough guys though? Are we simply losing because we don’t have an enforcer? Do our guys look like they’re playing scared? I wouldn’t say so to be honest.
In my opinion, a far bigger issue is why didn’t we improve our Brit pack? Todd again is showing that he doesn’t feel Wilson, Scoon or Anderson are worthy of a regular shift but he needs to play one of them when we have a suspension or injury. So at the weekend we lose one of our top forwards and then you’re throwing in someone you don’t think is capable of doing what you now need them to do. That’s going to hurt you far more than not having someone willing to drop the gloves regularly yet the minute something goes wrong it’s the enforcer debate. Maybe lack of depth was the issue on Sunday?
Maybe every time we play with a full complement of imports we should have a thread about how much better things are when you don’t have suspensions?
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Post by swarfiga on Sept 29, 2015 11:36:06 GMT
The way it was sold was that we would have team toughness, take Nicker out Belfast and they have proper team toughness like Keefe and Lloyd, Pacquet is trying his hardest, Delahey tried and may be a bit reluctant after that but I don't think we have anywhere near this team toughness Dutes spoke about pre season.. And to add Pacquet is arguably our best player imo so the last thing we need is him having to take up this role too much.
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finchy
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Post by finchy on Sept 29, 2015 11:56:59 GMT
With an enforcer for the past 2 seasons we saw very little cheapshots aimed at our team, probably because the biggest bully was on our side and most of the others teams guys simply didn't want to anger him. First Preseason game this year Keefe throws punches at our captain in the first shift, no comeback from the Flyers (that's after being as quiet as a mouse against us for the past 2 seasons). Lloyd slew foots Haines sending him into the boards, no reaction from our guys. Flemington Rutherford do what they did on Saturday, Gunny fighting off 3 players at one point, were was the team toughness then? Cardiff on Sunday Hotham and Hendrixx in particular just take liberties all night. Nobody steps up until Pauquet had no choice but do it (he clearly ain't a fighter), this was after one of their smaller guys had shot the puck at our goalie after the whistle. Like it or not if we had Matt or Salters or Clarkson in our line up pretty much every single one of these doesn't happen that's not based on "oh we can't say if an enforcer would have made a difference" we all know it does as we all watched the difference for the past 2 years.Teams and in particular the tough agitating players around the league will see what our guys do when they are pushed so far that's simply take it and skate away. I thought it was a mistake leading into the season, as I said earlier nothing has happened to change my mind. For reference Fitzgerald was up to his usual nonsense in Dundee on Saturday. Faryna fought him Clarkson had a word later on and he was by all accounts quiet the rest of the game. That's the difference it makes having these type of guys in your line up. Remind me- with all these teams apparently terrified to agitate Nicker, did that lead to us having unprecedented success in the league or did we just sneak into the play-offs in no more both years? Maybe the time for this debate is a bit later in the year?
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Post by waterboy on Sept 29, 2015 12:58:59 GMT
Missing the point much Finchy. I never suggested any teams were terrified but if you want to say he didn't make any difference to how opposing teams and their agitating players played that's your opinion. Players are very aware of who is on the opposing team and who is on the ice at any given time.
Its one element of the game one which in this league plays a key part of how games are played out. Look at the difference Janssen has made to the panthers, 0 PIMS so far. His influence against Belfast with Nickerson and Keefe played a key part in them not doing anything stupid.
The point I'm making is that these players who do agitate and push other players around think twice about it when they know someone on the other side will call them out. Its a key element in playing the game. Clarkson challenged our bench last year when Matt was out nobody took him on we lost the game 5-0.
Remind me-who stood up against Cardiff's tactics on Sunday. If we had someone (or a few) who could have stopped Hendrixx Hotham etc early on that game could easily have gone a very different direction.
The difference guys like Matt make is players like Zemlak Cohen Maxwell Wilson etc done get hurt because opposing players wont make the same plays when they have to face a Nickerson Salters Fitzgerald etc. It might be an old concept but these guys police the game as much as the refs do.
The entire league has stepped up their game in this way bar us (we have gone backwards)and Manchester because without it they wont win.
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finchy
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Post by finchy on Sept 29, 2015 13:46:30 GMT
Missing the point much Finchy. I never suggested any teams were terrified but if you want to say he didn't make any difference to how opposing teams and their agitating players played that's your opinion. Players are very aware of who is on the opposing team and who is on the ice at any given time. Its one element of the game one which in this league plays a key part of how games are played out. Look at the difference Janssen has made to the panthers, 0 PIMS so far. His influence against Belfast with Nickerson and Keefe played a key part in them not doing anything stupid. The point I'm making is that these players who do agitate and push other players around think twice about it when they know someone on the other side will call them out. Its a key element in playing the game. Clarkson challenged our bench last year when Matt was out nobody took him on we lost the game 5-0. Remind me-who stood up against Cardiff's tactics on Sunday. If we had someone (or a few) who could have stopped Hendrixx Hotham etc early on that game could easily have gone a very different direction. The difference guys like Matt make is players like Zemlak Cohen Maxwell Wilson etc done get hurt because opposing players wont make the same plays when they have to face a Nickerson Salters Fitzgerald etc. It might be an old concept but these guys police the game as much as the refs do. The entire league has stepped up their game in this way bar us (we have gone backwards)and Manchester because without it they wont win. Actually Waterboy- I think it's you that's missing my point completely. I am in complete agreement about the benefits of having an enforcer and have said so numerous times. The point however is we won't know whether or not the pros outweigh the cons until much later in the season. Flyers were an 7th or 8th place team with Nickerson despite his attributes. They're trying another route- it may work, it may not. There is no evidence either way at the moment but as soon as something goes wrong the same stuff is going to come out. We lost plenty games when we had an enforcer, so lets not try and make out every time we lose it's because we dont have one. To say cheap shots and injuries will NEVER happen when there's a tough guy around is also fantasy land. It makes some players think twice but not all- agitators and cheap shot merchants have it in their nature. To reiterate- it may be that we need a tough guy but IMO nothing will be as important as our lack of depth if we fail. 2 forward lines were weakened badly last weekend because of ONE suspension. I dont think we do have team toughness either but we dont have players dissapearing in games like in previous seasons.
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Post by waterboy on Sept 29, 2015 17:08:03 GMT
Missing the point much Finchy. I never suggested any teams were terrified but if you want to say he didn't make any difference to how opposing teams and their agitating players played that's your opinion. Players are very aware of who is on the opposing team and who is on the ice at any given time. Its one element of the game one which in this league plays a key part of how games are played out. Look at the difference Janssen has made to the panthers, 0 PIMS so far. His influence against Belfast with Nickerson and Keefe played a key part in them not doing anything stupid. The point I'm making is that these players who do agitate and push other players around think twice about it when they know someone on the other side will call them out. Its a key element in playing the game. Clarkson challenged our bench last year when Matt was out nobody took him on we lost the game 5-0. Remind me-who stood up against Cardiff's tactics on Sunday. If we had someone (or a few) who could have stopped Hendrixx Hotham etc early on that game could easily have gone a very different direction. The difference guys like Matt make is players like Zemlak Cohen Maxwell Wilson etc done get hurt because opposing players wont make the same plays when they have to face a Nickerson Salters Fitzgerald etc. It might be an old concept but these guys police the game as much as the refs do. The entire league has stepped up their game in this way bar us (we have gone backwards)and Manchester because without it they wont win. Actually Waterboy- I think it's you that's missing my point completely. I am in complete agreement about the benefits of having an enforcer and have said so numerous times. The point however is we won't know whether or not the pros outweigh the cons until much later in the season. Flyers were an 7th or 8th place team with Nickerson despite his attributes. They're trying another route- it may work, it may not. There is no evidence either way at the moment but as soon as something goes wrong the same stuff is going to come out. We lost plenty games when we had an enforcer, so lets not try and make out every time we lose it's because we dont have one. To say cheap shots and injuries will NEVER happen when there's a tough guy around is also fantasy land. It makes some players think twice but not all- agitators and cheap shot merchants have it in their nature. To reiterate- it may be that we need a tough guy but IMO nothing will be as important as our lack of depth if we fail. 2 forward lines were weakened badly last weekend because of ONE suspension. I dont think we do have team toughness either but we dont have players dissapearing in games like in previous seasons. Would you mind pointing out when I said injuries wont happen because a team has an enforcer or every loss we have is all because we don't have someone who fights. I said other teams agitators will think twice about doing the things they do because they will have to answer for their actions. Without having to answer to anyone they will run around doing their usual b/s. Lloyd's slewfoot being a perfect example, Kyle Haines hits the boards a different angle and that could easily have been a broken leg. How many times did Lloyd step out of line when Matt was on our side? Every listen to the Cats Whiskers podcast those Guys have referenced a Game in Nottingham last season when Matt was on his first game back from suspension where he basically bullied their whole team and we won in Nottingham 5-1. That's the point for me its not the be all and end all its one element that used correctly will help you. As far as players disappearing goes your right from an effort point of view the guys all work really hard through the entire game. But when Salters or Hendrixx entered into a few scrums on Sunday night our boys were not exactly tripping over each other to get to the front of the line. I hope I'm wrong but I think we will see a few of our guys getting hurt because the push back or protection just isn't there.
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