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Post by redtussell44 on Sept 29, 2015 17:10:52 GMT
Don't tease me like that! I would love to hear your current thoughts now we are a month into the season... As long as he agrees with your point of view I guess. If he doesn't he'll be accused of being a club insider. We didn't get bullied by Edinburgh. We controlled the game. Certain Edinburgh agitators did their job, which would have happened with or without an enforcer. Put Nickerson into the Flyers team last Sat and the only difference is he gets kicked out for being 3rd man in with Cullen. We weren't going to win on Sunday in that small rink even with Tony Twist in the team. The teams built on speed. Bollocks. No one has to agree with my opinion. Like I said, I wasn't at the game. But the highlights show a guy 5'9 jump one of our players, eye gouge another, and there was zero done to put a stop to it. My point is, if we had a enforcer, you really think Rutherford would get away with what he done on Saturday? Or would he even think about doing it? The answer would be no.
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Post by riverrat on Sept 29, 2015 17:37:47 GMT
As long as he agrees with your point of view I guess. If he doesn't he'll be accused of being a club insider. We didn't get bullied by Edinburgh. We controlled the game. Certain Edinburgh agitators did their job, which would have happened with or without an enforcer. Put Nickerson into the Flyers team last Sat and the only difference is he gets kicked out for being 3rd man in with Cullen. We weren't going to win on Sunday in that small rink even with Tony Twist in the team. The teams built on speed. Bollocks. No one has to agree with my opinion. Like I said, I wasn't at the game. But the highlights show a guy 5'9 jump one of our players, eye gouge another, and there was zero done to put a stop to it. My point is, if we had a enforcer, you really think Rutherford would get away with what he done on Saturday? Or would he even think about doing it? The answer would be no. He appears to have done it constantly in leagues with more enforcers than ours .Very unlikely a real enforcer would go with him due to his size. If you think he'd suddenly stop agitating because of a Fife enforcer you're deluded. If someone chooses to jump one of our players there's nothing an enforcer can do to stop it and, as has been seen in the past, retrospective action only results in bans.
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Post by redtussell44 on Sept 29, 2015 17:48:18 GMT
Bollocks. No one has to agree with my opinion. Like I said, I wasn't at the game. But the highlights show a guy 5'9 jump one of our players, eye gouge another, and there was zero done to put a stop to it. My point is, if we had a enforcer, you really think Rutherford would get away with what he done on Saturday? Or would he even think about doing it? The answer would be no. He appears to have done it constantly in leagues with more enforcers than ours .Very unlikely a real enforcer would go with him due to his size. If you think he'd suddenly stop agitating because of a Fife enforcer you're deluded. If someone chooses to jump one of our players there's nothing an enforcer can do to stop it and, as has been seen in the past, retrospective action only results in bans. I'm deluded? Hahaha ok mate. How does he appear to have done it constantly in other leagues? He had 59 pims last year, doesn't suggest to me quite the agitator does it? Any real enforcer would have put a stop to his actions on Saturday, regardless of how tall he is. Didn't Cullen throw punches back? If that's the case then there's no ban there. Can't get a ban for being an instigator, only if Cullen was an unwilling combatant.
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Post by riverrat on Sept 29, 2015 18:11:57 GMT
He appears to have done it constantly in leagues with more enforcers than ours .Very unlikely a real enforcer would go with him due to his size. If you think he'd suddenly stop agitating because of a Fife enforcer you're deluded. If someone chooses to jump one of our players there's nothing an enforcer can do to stop it and, as has been seen in the past, retrospective action only results in bans. I'm deluded? Hahaha ok mate. How does he appear to have done it constantly in other leagues? He had 59 pims last year, doesn't suggest to me quite the agitator does it? Any real enforcer would have put a stop to his actions on Saturday, regardless of how tall he is. Didn't Cullen throw punches back? If that's the case then there's no ban there. Can't get a ban for being an instigator, only if Cullen was an unwilling combatant. I was referring to an enforcer going after Rutherford after any fight/flash point or being 3rd man in would result in a ban for the enforcer. Hope that's easier to understand . Not sure what point you're trying to make with his penalty numbers .Do you understand what an agitator is? Read the press release on signing with Edinburgh and get back to me. m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/ice-hockey/david-rutherford-joins-edinburgh-capitals-1-3860264
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Post by zamboni on Sept 29, 2015 19:27:20 GMT
Looks like Rutherford don't care who is in the team t.co/51zxgl04kOHe has small angry man syndrome with his type it doesn't matter how many times you hit or hurt him he just comes back for more Some nights go in his favour most wont
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finchy
Pro
Posts: 1,567
EIHL Team: Fife Flyers
NHL Team: New Jersey Devil
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Post by finchy on Sept 29, 2015 23:08:20 GMT
Actually Waterboy- I think it's you that's missing my point completely. I am in complete agreement about the benefits of having an enforcer and have said so numerous times. The point however is we won't know whether or not the pros outweigh the cons until much later in the season. Flyers were an 7th or 8th place team with Nickerson despite his attributes. They're trying another route- it may work, it may not. There is no evidence either way at the moment but as soon as something goes wrong the same stuff is going to come out. We lost plenty games when we had an enforcer, so lets not try and make out every time we lose it's because we dont have one. To say cheap shots and injuries will NEVER happen when there's a tough guy around is also fantasy land. It makes some players think twice but not all- agitators and cheap shot merchants have it in their nature. To reiterate- it may be that we need a tough guy but IMO nothing will be as important as our lack of depth if we fail. 2 forward lines were weakened badly last weekend because of ONE suspension. I dont think we do have team toughness either but we dont have players dissapearing in games like in previous seasons. Would you mind pointing out when I said injuries wont happen because a team has an enforcer or every loss we have is all because we don't have someone who fights. I said other teams agitators will think twice about doing the things they do because they will have to answer for their actions. Without having to answer to anyone they will run around doing their usual b/s. Lloyd's slewfoot being a perfect example, Kyle Haines hits the boards a different angle and that could easily have been a broken leg. How many times did Lloyd step out of line when Matt was on our side? Every listen to the Cats Whiskers podcast those Guys have referenced a Game in Nottingham last season when Matt was on his first game back from suspension where he basically bullied their whole team and we won in Nottingham 5-1. That's the point for me its not the be all and end all its one element that used correctly will help you. As far as players disappearing goes your right from an effort point of view the guys all work really hard through the entire game. But when Salters or Hendrixx entered into a few scrums on Sunday night our boys were not exactly tripping over each other to get to the front of the line. I hope I'm wrong but I think we will see a few of our guys getting hurt because the push back or protection just isn't there. You've listed a number of Flyers players you think wouldn't have gotten injured had an enforcer been there. You've also given that example of when we played Cardiff with and without Nickerson and the differing results as if that's proof positive that results are better with a tough guy. The irony there of course is that Matt missed the first game through suspension.... I honestly don't get how it can possibly be argued that the only time to judge overall is much later in the season. There will be more attempted intimidation of our players- that is beyond doubt. What's important is how we handle it and whether or not we can find other ways to win. Less suspensions will help, less silly penalties will help - there's more than one way to skin a cat. I prefer to have tough guys - unfortunately we don't but I'm willing to see whether or not it helps or hurts us over the full season. It's almost been forgotten that despite Rutherford's antics we did win on Saturday. Cullen didn't seem put off his game either. The brand of hockey Flyers played last season was horrible and players took nights off. I'm seeing improvements on both points at this stage. Intimidation has its place and can have positive results but pucks in the net is how I'm going to judge us this season. With our weak Brit core we need imports who play and contribute most nights and I'd say most of them are doing ok. I'd take Nickerson back tomorrow but we've taken a different route- I think it's only fair to assess whether it's right or wrong based on results.
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Post by redtussell44 on Sept 30, 2015 9:53:00 GMT
I'm deluded? Hahaha ok mate. How does he appear to have done it constantly in other leagues? He had 59 pims last year, doesn't suggest to me quite the agitator does it? Any real enforcer would have put a stop to his actions on Saturday, regardless of how tall he is. Didn't Cullen throw punches back? If that's the case then there's no ban there. Can't get a ban for being an instigator, only if Cullen was an unwilling combatant. I was referring to an enforcer going after Rutherford after any fight/flash point or being 3rd man in would result in a ban for the enforcer. Hope that's easier to understand . Not sure what point you're trying to make with his penalty numbers .Do you understand what an agitator is? Read the press release on signing with Edinburgh and get back to me. m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/ice-hockey/david-rutherford-joins-edinburgh-capitals-1-3860264Just read it, "he likes to get under the opponents skin" is that it? Is that what your basing his last few season on being an agitator? I'm not wasting any more of my time on you. I'm cool with you having a different opinion. But when it comes to the effect of an enforcer you don't have a clue mate.
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finchy
Pro
Posts: 1,567
EIHL Team: Fife Flyers
NHL Team: New Jersey Devil
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Post by finchy on Sept 30, 2015 11:14:46 GMT
Just read it, "he likes to get under the opponents skin" is that it? Is that what your basing his last few season on being an agitator? I'm not wasting any more of my time on you. I'm cool with you having a different opinion. But when it comes to the effect of an enforcer you don't have a clue mate. According to Belfast fans on social media Rutherford 'speared' Adam Keefe around the helmet area last week. He also has a major slashing penalty against Dundee. That would suggest that Messrs Nickerson, Clarkson etc arent really a deterrant to his type. He is a good example of a boy who'll do what he wants regardless of who is in the opposition line up. Enforcers do, to an extent, keep players honest but it's not the 100 percent safeguard from cheap hits/plays that some are suggesting.
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Post by coloradoflyer on Sept 30, 2015 11:21:58 GMT
it looked like on saturday from the highlights that zanette speared one of our guys behind the net
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Post by thebear on Sept 30, 2015 11:33:49 GMT
Just read it, "he likes to get under the opponents skin" is that it? Is that what your basing his last few season on being an agitator? I'm not wasting any more of my time on you. I'm cool with you having a different opinion. But when it comes to the effect of an enforcer you don't have a clue mate. According to Belfast fans on social media Rutherford 'speared' Adam Keefe around the helmet area last week. He also has a major slashing penalty against Dundee. That would suggest that Messrs Nickerson, Clarkson etc arent really a deterrant to his type. He is a good example of a boy who'll do what he wants regardless of who is in the opposition line up. Enforcers do, to an extent, keep players honest but it's not the 100 percent safeguard from cheap hits/plays that some are suggesting. It won't be long before someone gives him a sore face! Certain players will keep guys like Flemington at bay such as Nicker as they know they wont even be a match for them for helmets like Rutherford they will do what they want Fulton did the same when he played for us, not as bad as some of the stuff Rutherfords been up to but with the same effect, can't ever recall Fulton dropping the gloves after instigating? Scoony needs to get more ice time if we want our makeshift enforcer to police a game
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Mike
Rookie
Posts: 82
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Post by Mike on Sept 30, 2015 12:32:33 GMT
Fulton did exactly that sort of job, and I don't recall any enforcers stopping him, because there's no way he'd have fought them. I don't remember the last time one of the big guys in the league (Fitzgerald, Nickerson etc) battered a guy like Fulton, Lloyd and co for having cheap digs at teammates.
Nickerson only fought Fitzgerald, Clarkson, Keefe and Frank last year as far as I remember (I stand to be corrected), and there are plenty of "agitators" who he knows full well would never fight him. The idea that he's a deterrent is perhaps true to an extent, but is being hugely overstated. Plenty of guys threw cheapshots knowing full well there's not that much he could do about it - if he threw down and battered a guy who didn't fight back he'd be in the stands for a month. Rutherford was, as Finchy has said, up to the same sort of stuff against Belfast, and didn't seem to be put off by Matt being there. Same with Valabik in Coventry - he battered Kris Beech (who wasn't interested) senseless and turned down a fight with Matt. How much is he deterring people really?
Some Capitals players took a few liberties with our guys. I can't say our guys looked overly intimidated or "bullied" though, and it certainly didn't stop them from winning the game.
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Post by riverrat on Sept 30, 2015 13:06:47 GMT
Fulton did exactly that sort of job, and I don't recall any enforcers stopping him, because there's no way he'd have fought them. I don't remember the last time one of the big guys in the league (Fitzgerald, Nickerson etc) battered a guy like Fulton, Lloyd and co for having cheap digs at teammates. Nickerson only fought Fitzgerald, Clarkson, Keefe and Frank last year as far as I remember (I stand to be corrected), and there are plenty of "agitators" who he knows full well would never fight him. The idea that he's a deterrent is perhaps true to an extent, but is being hugely overstated. Plenty of guys threw cheapshots knowing full well there's not that much he could do about it - if he threw down and battered a guy who didn't fight back he'd be in the stands for a month. Rutherford was, as Finchy has said, up to the same sort of stuff against Belfast, and didn't seem to be put off by Matt being there. Same with Valabik in Coventry - he battered Kris Beech (who wasn't interested) senseless and turned down a fight with Matt. How much is he deterring people really? Some Capitals players took a few liberties with our guys. I can't say our guys looked overly intimidated or "bullied" though, and it certainly didn't stop them from winning the game. Great post. As long as the "unwilling combatant" rule remains the enforcer myth will continue to be just that. Pests/cheap shot artists/agitators have always existed and always will. They are very rarely taken to task by enforcers who in reality only cancel each other out. The NHL is realising this and so will we one day. The romanticism of "the code" is just that. In reality a good scrap is entertaining and sparks the crowd but has a much lesser effect on the players. I'm as entertained as anyone by a hockey fight (as long as its not too scripted or pantomime) but it is a dying art as the game becomes more based on speed.
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Post by Dirkster23 on Sept 30, 2015 16:11:58 GMT
DoPS suspend Caps agitator for 2 games.
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Post by redtussell44 on Sept 30, 2015 16:24:32 GMT
DoPS suspend Caps agitator for 2 games. Please, stop with the agitator. Rutherford is a wee dirty bas. End of. It's actually embarrassing watching Cullen do nothing. At least protect yourself.
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Post by Dirkster23 on Sept 30, 2015 18:34:31 GMT
DoPS suspend Caps agitator for 2 games. Please, stop with the agitator. Rutherford is a wee dirty bas. End of. It's actually embarrassing watching Cullen do nothing. At least protect yourself. Here's a bit of reading for you. www.whlfans.ca/archive/index.php/t-9360.html
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